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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tonester" data-source="post: 4362661" data-attributes="member: 71788">Stealth does connect to "Target What You Can't See" in the sense that when you can't see a target you wish to attack, you make a minor action perception check against their last stealth check.  Just because you can't see them doesn't mean you can't hear them.  And, if they aren't walking, drinking potions, etc stealthily, you will hear them.  Mostly agree, but not completely.  See below a bit further.  Agreed.This is one of the things I think I disagree with.  If you succeed against the passive check, then they aren't alert to you.  If you failed the passive check, you aren't stealthed.  So how are they supposed to make an active check if they aren't aware of you or if you aren't stealthed to them?  Once you successfully stealth, you remained unnoticed unless something changes: a) you lose your cover/concealment b) you perform another action with a failed stealth check c) you attack d) you shout.  e) someone who is aware of you alerts others, etc.  I'd be interested in seeing the support you are referencing. This is one of those areas that a DM will cover and make an "appropriateness" call on.  It definitely isn't in the PHB anywhere, but it has been mentioned as the way Mearls does it personally... but he even admitted that that doesn't make it official.  Again, this is where things are sort of unclear in the book.  The ONLY place it talks about using a minor action to "spot someone" is with regards to Targetting What You Can't See.  In all other places, Stealth is against a Passive Perception check.  To me, it seems the contradiction occurs when:An observer is aware of a player one moment and then becomes unaware the next moment for whatever reason.  I.E. The player is standing behind a long counter/short wall for cover.  The monster sees the player.  Then, the player ducks down behind the counter/short wall (and now has cover).  Once ducked behind, the player moves with a successful stealth check to another spot which also has cover/concealment.  The observer doesn't know where the player is, but they know they are probably around.  And in this case, it is treated as if the player has Total Concealment (although they don't most likely) in terms of Targetting What You Can't See.  This is one of the instances I can think of where a minor action is used to spot a stealthed character.... other than the instance where the observer is blinded, or where the player is invisible and must stealth to remain quiet.  That is pretty harsh.  If a player says, "I walk quietly into a candle-lit room" then the player probably means to move into the room with a stealth check.  And, since it is dim-light, the player has every right to do so.  And a good DM would never tell a player if anyone in the room has low-light or darkvision unless someone in the party meta-gamed it or passed a knowledge check.  If a player says, "I'll move quietly....." the DM should automatically say, "You need to make a stealth check" even if the DM knows whether or not the creatures have low-light/dark or whatever.  By requiring a "bogus check that the player can never succeed in", it allows the DM to not divulge any info about the monsters/creatures.  After the player rolls a 20 and then the DM goes, "You hear battle-cries and warning signals echo'ing from the back of the room," the players will then figure out (too late) that someone probably had special vision or one hell of a passive perception.   As a DM, I wouldn't incur a move penalty on Ethereal Stride.  Personally, I think that only applies to actual walking/flying/running/swimming/physical movement.  Teleporting (especially ethereally) is way quieter than walking, I'd imagine.  I do agree about the passive/active checks however.*EDIT*I just wanted to re-iterate:  I think the minor active check is only applicable when: A) It is during combat.  B) It involves an observer who, at one time, was aware of someone and for whatever reason no longer is. I.E. They jumped into thick foliage, the observer went blind from an attack, the player was behind cover and moved to a new location while have cover/concealment the whole time, the example above with the lock teleporting with concealment from Shadow Walk, the player goes invisible for whatever reason, etc.</blockquote>

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