Stealthy Combat: How Would You Run It?

[Mistwell]

I don't know if you meant to or not, but that is completely wrong. Maybe you were referring to cover?

No, I meant concealment, though it also applies to cover.

If it is low light and my attacker doesn't have low or dark vision, I have concealment which gives him a -2 for attack rolls. Then, on my turn, if I attack him and happen to have low or dark vision, then I do not suffer a penalty for attack rolls.

Yes, but that isn't the typical example. The typical example is the one mentioned in this thread - bushes.

Another example would be a ranger shooting from an edge of a fog, mist, or darkness spell. The attacker gets to pick ANY corner of his/her own square for the attack and trace it to all other corners of their target. Since the attacker's corner isn't IN the concealed area, he/she would NOT be shooting through obscured vision.

Concealment depends on line of sight.

PHB pg. 273:

"To determine whether you can see a target, pick a corner of your space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of the target’s space. You can see the target if at least one line doesn’t pass through or touch an object or an effect—such as a wall, a thick curtain, or a cloud of fog—that blocks your vision."

The line touches the corner of a square with an effect that grants concealment. So it seems to me that you grant concealment to your foe.

Because of all this, I'm going to assume you meant cover and not concealment. In this regard, the PHB and DMG doesn't really talk about it, but from my own personal experiences, many people allow raged attackers to shoot from behind cover without a penalty if it is only 1 square.

That is a house rule. The rules don't talk about it, hence, it's not in the rules. The rules say in many cases (though you can maneuver sometimes to avoid it) that you grant your target the same cover you are hiding behind.

These issues should be taken into account when considering the effects of stealth. If the ranged stealthy character is getting cover or concealment to get the stealth, they often are granting that same cover/concealment to their foe. They need Combat Advantage just to be able to negate that penalty. Ignoring this issue fails to account for the whole picture.

 

[bardolph]

PHB pg. 273:

"To determine whether you can see a target, pick a corner of your space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of the target’s space. You can see the target if at least one line doesn’t pass through or touch an object or an effect—such as a wall, a thick curtain, or a cloud of fog—that blocks your vision."

The line touches the corner of a square with an effect that grants concealment. So it seems to me that you grant concealment to your foe.

According to the PHB, concealment offers a -2 to hit if the target is IN the square that grants concealment. If there are intervening squares that grant concealment, they don't count unless they completely block line of sight.

Cover, on the other hand, does count if the cover-granting square is in between the attacker and the target.

 

[bardolph]

I didn't answer your question about moving 2 squares, and I couldn't give a flat yes or no. I'd lean towards no, mainly because you could have a rogue walk into a candlelit 20x20 room with 4 people watching him come in the door, and by stealthing 2 squares right in front of them, would you give him CA? I wouldn't. Now if he managed to enter the room without notice? I'd let him move about the dim room with Stealth. But as far as making someone unaware of you? Gonna take something exceptional.

What about moving around in a grove of trees? Plenty of stuff to hide behind or in.

 

[Xorn]

It would depend on what they tried to stealth behind. A grove of trees four squares across? With a successful stealth roll... there's a good chance. If I'm 20 squares away, you moving over four squares doesn't really change much. I know you're in that grove of trees still. So I don't know how far you have to move before I call the target "unaware" of you again. It's a judgement call that the DM has to make as it happens. The fact that it can happen so often is why I don't like it being "fuzzy". Just fall back on "if the DM feels it's appropriate".

If you have a bush that blocks line of sight but not line of effect, and you're in the bush square--you have total concealment--combat advantage.

Closest to concrete answer I have--you have to move a lot. At least enough to incur a penalty for moving stealthed, so more than 2 squares.

 

[bert1000]

This is what I am using for now:

You can make a stealth check if you already have cover or concealment (for instance at the end of a move action that ends in cover) to gain CA on a subsequent attack action, but you are never really 'hidden' (you never gain Total Concealment and enemies always know where you are and can target your square with the -2 cover/concealment penalty). The perception vs. stealth check is only used to determine whether you get CA or not (effectively stealth allows you to use misdirection during your attack from cover/concealment to gain CA period).

The only way you could truly hide in combat using stealth (get the "target what you can't see" benefits) is if
1) you used stealth to hide in any cover/concealment pre-combat and enemies are not aware of you
2) during combat, you have Total Concealment/Superior Cover. Regular cover and concealment can then be used to stay hidden (with Stealth checks) and you can move around in continuous cover/concealment. You can not exit cover/concealment and re-enter and remain hidden.

Within this system, looking at the Rogue powers:
a. Fleeting Ghost -- good, you can move full speed into cover/concealment w/ no penalty to Stealth check and still make a standard attack with CA
b. Chameleon -- good, allows you to keep hidden even in LOS for 1 turn, but have to regain cover/concealment to keep hide
c. Shadow Stride -- good, move from cover to cover without breaking hide
d. Hide in Plain sight -- good, you can attack with hide, without breaking it (you are invisible in your square as long as you don't move)
c. Hide from the light -- good
d. Bluff check to hide -- good, once per combat, if you succeed on a std action bluff check, you can use a move action to move into regular cover/concealment and hide (makes sense)

Also need to make Stealth as part of at least a move action, otherwise Fleeting Ghost is not useful (move, minor action stealth, attack).

Not sure if this is RAW or RAI, but looks like some house rules for me for now. It makes it relatively easy to get combat advantage, but tougher to "hide" and get the full invisible defensive perks (which are quite powerful). It also makes all the utility powers quite useful.