Stocking up on cheap magic

[Storm Raven]

I absolutely _despise_ the idea of magic being bought and sold like common merchandise. Magic is meant to be esoteric and arcane.

Then maybe D&D isn't the game for you. As soon as the PCs have access to the rules concerning magic, the ability to use magic themselves, and potentially the ability to craft magic items, the "arcane and esoteric" nature of magic is pretty much out the window.

The only realistic way to make magic "mysterious" to the PCs is to take it out of their hands for the most part.

 

[Storm Raven]

Well, obviously I disagree strongly with this analysis. 50 clws in a handy stick is far better than 50 scolls each with clw.

So, do you always buy, say razor blades, in quantities sufficient to provide for your annual needs at one time?

 

[Arnwyn]

I wanted to get people's opinions and insights...

It really rubs be the wrong way when I hear about folks 'stocking up' on cheap magic.

It only rubs me the wrong way when someone tries to apply that to my personal campaign.

Otherwise it doesn't bother me - I've now seen and heard of enough wacky and appalling campaigns out there (heck, most of them just from perusing ENWorld) that I just shrug and dismiss with a giant "YMMV". If it works for them, more power to 'em.

 

[S'mon]

So, do you always buy, say razor blades, in quantities sufficient to provide for your annual needs at one time?

I buy an electric shaver, it's far better than a big bag of disposable razors.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Really?

In a game with handy haversacks and bags of holding?

Perhaps more to the point, is a wand of CLW better than 25 scrolls of CLW, 5 scrolls of remove fear, 10 scrolls of protection from evil, 5 scrolls of detect secret doors, a scroll of hold portal, a scroll of true strike, and two scrolls of shield?

Characters are unlikely to go through all 50 CLW charges on a wand before they have a chance to restock, so, if the price per charge on a wand were equal to the price per charge on a scroll, there would be significant opportunity costs to buying 50 charges at once instead of buying the healing scrolls you're likely to need in the immediate future along with a supply of diverse and sundry scrolls that might come in handy. Buying the wand doesn't get the PCs anything they need and denies them the possibility of spending that money on other things that might be useful. (That's one of the reasons that wands are cheaper than scrolls).

Making wands more expensive than scrolls jacks the opportunity cost up even further.

Your analysis only makes sense in a world where storage space and carrying capacity are at a premium and a campaign where characters will go for several levels without having a chance to restock their consumable magic items. I don't think either of those describe most D&D campaigns. (Though both may describe Nemmerle's Aquerra campaign, so highly customized worlds may be different).

Well, obviously I disagree strongly with this analysis. 50 clws in a handy stick is far better than 50 scolls each with clw.

 

[Storyteller01]

Okay... per the DMG, a peasnt family generally requires 2 gp a month to survive. How much does the average peasant make?

How much does a standard serviceman make in a month? (serviceman being inn keepers, porters, shoe makers, etc. We only need an average, we're not talking about wealthy nobles.)

Given those costs, can someone afford to buy a potion of CLW? If not, why are they so accessuble?

What cleric would lower their usefulness to their god (meager exp they earn for tending the church gets spent on potion making and not level raising) for an unprofitable situation? Most of the churches (and more than a few bards) would carter to the rich (churches cost money to run...).

Or, getting back to the subject of the purchase of any magic item, if it costs a peasant two gold a month to survive, where are the getting the cash to purchase a minimum 50 gp item? That's over two years worth of supplies for a one shot item.

Anyone else finding a problem with this situation.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Anyone else finding a problem with this situation.

No.

Sure, it costs 50gp to buy a potion of CLW, if the cleric is selling it to you at a profit. It also costs 10gp to get him to cast CLW on you when you're in his presence, when he's interested in profit. Yes, that's a lot compared to an average peasant's income.

On the other hand, how much does a cleric eat? I'd imagine he's maintaining a slightly better than peasant-level home, and I'm also guessing he doesn't have a lot of time to farm (unless, say, he's a cleric of Chauntea).

So, instead, he gets tithes from his flock. They bring by milk for the week, or cheese, or some meat or flour, and the cleric saves the cost of procuring food. In exchange, he provides his healing services *at cost* or even below, depending on the cleric. After all, it only really costs the cleric 25gp in actual materials to make that potion.

Is it perfect? No - but then again, D&D isn't a hardcore economics sim, and frankly, I'm kinda tired of everyone pointing out that fact and tittering behind their hands as if they'd made some kind of witty joke.

 

[Storyteller01]

No.

Sure, it costs 50gp to buy a potion of CLW, if the cleric is selling it to you at a profit. It also costs 10gp to get him to cast CLW on you when you're in his presence, when he's interested in profit. Yes, that's a lot compared to an average peasant's income.

On the other hand, how much does a cleric eat? I'd imagine he's maintaining a slightly better than peasant-level home, and I'm also guessing he doesn't have a lot of time to farm (unless, say, he's a cleric of Chauntea).

So, instead, he gets tithes from his flock. They bring by milk for the week, or cheese, or some meat or flour, and the cleric saves the cost of procuring food. In exchange, he provides his healing services *at cost* or even below, depending on the cleric. After all, it only really costs the cleric 25gp in actual materials to make that potion.

Is it perfect? No - but then again, D&D isn't a hardcore economics sim, and frankly, I'm kinda tired of everyone pointing out that fact and tittering behind their hands as if they'd made some kind of witty joke.

So he's going to charge a peasant money that would buy one years worth of supplies (or a few months for the spell itself) AND take a share of the peasants yield (which may be needed to feed the family) for an effect that treats surface wounds (as opposed to treating disease, giving themoney to the poor, or just going out in the field to help bring in a crop).

No tittering; I'm flat out gahaffing. Just find it amazing how quickly we forget cause and effect.

YMMV

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So he's going to charge a peasant money that would buy one years worth of supplies (or a few months for the spell itself) AND take a share of the peasants yield

Read again, young Storyteller.

In exchange, he provides his healing services *at cost* or even below, depending on the cleric.

And perhaps you missed that, by accepting the tithe, the cleric's basically taking payment up-front in case of need? Kinda like insurance, eh?

Besides, you're wrong in your application of numbers. A cheap lifestyle takes 2gp per month in upkeep - new clothes, extra seed, roof-thatching repairs, etc. Commoner farmers, since they don't all die off, make more than 2gp per month. Most of it just goes right back into living expenses.

For reference, an "unskilled laborer" generally earns 1sp per day. 6 days a week, 4 weeks a month, and you've got 2.4gp per month - more than enough to pay his living expenses as well as a bit more. Should he be "promoted," even slightly (say, 1.5sp per day), why, then, he's got quite a bit of money to spare.

 

[Storyteller01]

Read again, young Storyteller.

based it on the 25 gp to make a potion (selling at cost). The cleric can sell them for less than cost, but then you get into churches output in rare supplies vs villager input of basic neccessities.

And perhaps you missed that, by accepting the tithe, the cleric's basically taking payment up-front in case of need? Kinda like insurance, eh?

Could work, but it seems like a loss for the church.

Besides, you're wrong in your application of numbers. A cheap lifestyle takes 2gp per month in upkeep - new clothes, extra seed, roof-thatching repairs, etc. Commoner farmers, since they don't all die off, make more than 2gp per month. Most of it just goes right back into living expenses.

For reference, an "unskilled laborer" generally earns 1sp per day. 6 days a week, 4 weeks a month, and you've got 2.4gp per month - more than enough to pay his living expenses as well as a bit more. Should he be "promoted," even slightly (say, 1.5sp per day), why, then, he's got quite a bit of money to spare.

Per these numbers, unskilled labor (the vast majority of the population, unless it's houseruled otherwise) makes a 1 gp profit every 2 and a half months (.4 gp a month, or 4 silver), barring unforeseen disasters. Unless the laborer it willing to suck it up and only buy the bare minimum (which he may be anyway), he's gaining just under 5 gp a year (1.2 every three months) in spending money. He can pay for said potion in just over 10 years.

Even with a raise to 1.5 silver, with the same work schedule, the laborer is making 3.6 gp a month (profit of 1.6 gp). Even this raise means you an afford the potion in in about 2 and a half to 3 years.

Forgive the math. I'm working out of my head right now.

Churches can give them out for less, but SOMEONE is paying for them (lest the poor friars starve). I doubt they can afford having 30 on stock.