Stripping alignment out of D&D

[Liminal Syzygy]

As an aside ... I once ran a FR campaign that used alignment with a number assigned to each component, ranging from 0 to 10.

Monte Cook's system from BoHM, or something different?

Once that campaign ended, I vowed to never again use alignment.

Hah! So what it drove home to you that it just wasn't worth it, even to the level of keeping track of any alignment at all? Or you just want to try something different?

 

[shilsen]

One option, just 'cause no one else has posted it yet...
Instead of having alignment be as indellible as a fingerprint, have it fluctuate based on the party's recent deeds. That fighter was lawful good, until they made a habit of extracting fingernails as well as information. This is a paramount consideration for paladins and clerics, who may well have to act as the party's more compass as well as walking BandAid, and opens up new RP subtexts all 'round the table. Maybe after atonement, commune, penance at a suitable shrine, or whatever the fitting recourse seems, they'd not need worry that the next order's wrath, for example, would either dud or wipe out half the party - there's more to being a goodly hero than stabbin' at what takes a stab at you.

You mean people don't do the above? As far as I knew, character and actions make alignment, rather than the other way around. IMC, players know that their characters' actions will affect their alignment, and unless the character is capable of casting the appropriate detection spells, he isn't going to know about it. For paladins, clerics, druids, and other characters where alignment may affect access to abilities, I utilize dreams and other signs to indicate to them when they're getting close to a slippery slope.

 

[eris404]

Well, one problem is that I use a homegrown magic system as well, so spell descriptors don't present the same challenges. But, yes, anything that would affect evil or be limited to good will affect someone with high (10+wisdom bonus) corruption points. The number of corruption points would then be subtracted from whatever saving throw would be necessary to avoid the effect (for example, the will save needed for an attempt to cross a circle of protection). (Jumping down a bit) The players don't mind because the NPCs also work under the same restrictions, although a truly evil/insane magician who knew she or he was dying next week anyway would present a bit of a challange. The casters have become much more thoughtful and creative with their magic use--I've made divination more useful in all sorts of ways, and kept casters in general fairly rare to keep the "special" feel.

This has given me a lot to chew on. I think this is an extremely interesting idea and I have all sorts of questions (I apologize if this is hijacking this thread). For example, how do you "award" the corruption points? Do some spells earn a higher corruption value than others? As for other (that is, non-spellcasting) actions, do you have a system in place for corruption points as well, or is it a case by case basis?

(As an aside, I have been running Star Wars d20, and I think the force points/dark side points are a good mechanic and have added a lot to the game.)

My next question is definitely a hijack, but I'm curious how you've changed divination spells, too.

 

[Kesh]

Another vote for the d20 Modern Allegiance system. Provides a lot more flexibility, while still allowing for an 'alignment' option of Good/Evil/Law/Chaos/Neutrality.

For problems like the Paladin's Smite Evil, I'd look at Modern's Slayer AdvC. Though there may not be many shadow creatures in your average D&D campaign, the basic idea is sound... Smite Outsider, or Smite Undead, or simply create an 'unnatural' classification. Or, keep it Smite Evil, and simply make all critters of Evil alignment in D&D have the Evil allegiance with the same repercussions.

 

[Kesh]

Double post, please delete.

 

[Kesh]

Triple! Sorry, I hate my dialup connection.

 

[Spatula]

IMO, it's really difficult to lose alignment. Too many mechanics depend on it - the Protection spells are just the tip of the iceberg. For example, there's tons of spells that have [Evil], [Good], etc descriptors - what happens to them? The descriptor is part of the balance.

Just remove the descriptors. What balance is really being affected? Remove the spell if its effects are solely alignment-based (Holy Word, etc.), or remove any effects that are alignment-based (the Protection and Magic Circle spells, which would still hedge out summoned creatures and protect against mind control).

Plus, you need to rebalance all of the spells and items that are affected by alignment, which can be a mighty pain.

What would need to be rebalanced? I'm just not seeing the need.

 

[willpax]

Eris404: I've moved my discussion to this thread in house rules. If you're still interested, we can continue the discussion there.

 

[eris404]

Eris404: I've moved my discussion to this thread in house rules. If you're still interested, we can continue the discussion there.

Hey thanks! I'm gonna check it out!