Strongholds?

[Kraydak]

<Cut Scene>

...

DM: "So you guys are eating the stew at the Inn of the Welcome Wench. Suddenly Erol chokes on something . . . roll some Fort saves, DC25 . . . "
Erol rolls: "11+7 = 18. D'oh."
DM: "And the rest of you?"
Players: "We thought it was just Erol choking?"
DM: "It's not. Roll for everybody."
Players: "But we're not even in a fight . . . "

Then cue 2 months later:

Orc Leader, standing on the mayor's corpse: "Damn good thing they decided to scare off the adventurers that were protecting the city."
Orc 2, standing on mayor's second and commands corpse:"Yup, on with the looting and pillaging!"

Which, of course, would be predictable. Which is why a competant mayor wouldn't start the whole business in the first place. That is assuming that the mayor is capable of setting up a viable assasination scheme and paying for it, neither of which are good assumptions.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

Then cue 2 months later:

Orc Leader, standing on the mayor's corpse: "Damn good thing they decided to scare off the adventurers that were protecting the city."
Orc 2, standing on mayor's second and commands corpse:"Yup, on with the looting and pillaging!"

Which, of course, would be predictable. Which is why a competant mayor wouldn't start the whole business in the first place. That is assuming that the mayor is capable of setting up a viable assasination scheme and paying for it, neither of which are good assumptions.

Yeah. Because the PCs are the ONLY ones who could stop orcs. That and the campaign was already over a long time ago.

 

[Kraydak]

Yeah. Because the PCs are the ONLY ones who could stop orcs. That and the campaign was already over a long time ago.

Welcome to "points of light"!

(but yes, if the players actually feel that the NPCs should treat the PCs like the extremely powerful people who risked death many times to save the townsfolk that the PCs are and are willing to make their displeasure known when the DM has the townsfolk treat the PCs like dirt, well, yes, the campaign is kind of doomed)

 

[Prince of Happiness]

Welcome to "points of light"!

(but yes, if the players actually feel that the NPCs should treat the PCs like the extremely powerful people who risked death many times to save the townsfolk that the PCs are and are willing to make their displeasure known when the DM has the townsfolk treat the PCs like dirt, well, yes, the campaign is kind of doomed)

Could be "treating them like dirt" or "treating them like everyone else" or "that there have been a myriad of factors discussed earlier in the thread about why a campaign like this can work because there are actual in-game motivations for the characters to continue playing the game rather than acting like a bunch of brats and not being very 'heroic' at all."

Welcome to "the thread!"

 

[robertliguori]

Could be "treating them like dirt" or "treating them like everyone else" or "that there have been a myriad of factors discussed earlier in the thread about why a campaign like this can work because there are actual in-game motivations for the characters to continue playing the game rather than acting like a bunch of brats and not being very 'heroic' at all."

Welcome to "the thread!"

PCs kill things and take their stuff. They fight and loot especially hard when someone is trying to kill them first. This is, by and large, the game.

Pitting the PCs against local politics, hired champions, and the military might of a kingdom will rarely dissuade them once they hit about 10th level or so. At this point, conspiracies without high-level magic simply fall apart; there are too many magical ways to get information. Poison is also useless; a few Rod-extended spells of Delay Poison mean that the PCs can always get to an antidote before taking any damage.

From there, it's fairly simple to throw divinations out until a name pops up. The PCs then capture and interrogate (fatalities are acceptable; Raise Dead and Speak with Dead are both options at this point. Heck, Plane Shifting to the appropriate Outer Plane and hunting down the soul is an option at this point.) Repeat as necessary; overlapping divinations with multiple casters can get you to very high levels of certainty very quickly.

The mayor (or a convincing illusionary duplicate of him) will probably be killed by a similarly-illusionary duplicate of Ironfist. If Ironfist was a member of any guild or organization of professional killers, said organization would learn the folly of attacking enemies that can cast Lesser Planar Binding. On the rubble of whatever was left of their guildhouses would be a polite note to the survivors (if any), requesting that if they wish to avoid a further army of fire elementals, they should consider their targets more carefully in the future.

At level 10, an adventuring party is essentially sovereign against most nations without significant magic. If you don't like this, perhaps E6 is for you. Optionally, you should consider that if you don't want the PCs to fight something or someone, you really shouldn't have it oppose them in the first place.

 

[Warren Okuma]

<Cut Scene>

Mayor's 2nd in command (offscreen): "And then they said you were no longer mayor, and if you don't let them take whatever they like, they'll defect to serve any master who pays them."
Mayor: "Even the hobgoblin king, or the lich lord, or the guys on the other side of the mountain with the different style hats?"
Mayor's 2nd in command: "Just so, my lord."
Mayor: "What insolance, what arrogance. This is treason. It is our sworn duty to oppose treason."
Mayor's 2nd in command: "Indeed, my lord."
Mayor: "But what can we do? These people can cast Fireball! Our militia could never bring them to heal, but we must stop them before they can fall-in with our enemies."
Mayor's 2nd in command: "I think I know someone who can help."

<Cut Scene>

Ironfist the Assassin: "Look, it's for the good of the City. I've got a signed parchment from the Mayor right here."
Paper reads: "Please give Ironfist assistance in all matters. He serves the good of the City, and our King. Signed, Hizzonor, Mayor of Dragonville"
Cook: "OK, then. It is my honor to serve the King. Do as you must. Time for me to make a short trip to the outhouse, eh?"
Ironfist winks at the cook: "They'll be none the wiser."

<Cut Scene>

DM: "So you guys are eating the stew at the Inn of the Welcome Wench. Suddenly Erol chokes on something . . . roll some Fort saves, DC25 . . . "
Erol rolls: "11+7 = 18. D'oh."
DM: "And the rest of you?"
Players: "We thought it was just Erol choking?"
DM: "It's not. Roll for everybody."
Players: "But we're not even in a fight . . . "

DC 25? Kind of low. Fine. I cast Remove poison. Let's go loot the treasury. Oh! A town dungeon! Cool!

 

[robertliguori]

DC 25? Kind of low. Fine. I cast Remove poison. Let's go loot the treasury. Oh! A town dungeon! Cool!

Really, it depends on the PCs lifestyle. After the first such incident, one would expect the PCs to go into lockdown mode, keeping protective spells up at all times, doing all of their resting in well-hidden extradimensional pockets, and going nowhere without magical disguises. (And at least one person with Arcane Sight or similar up at all times. Yes, you can send someone with Detect Magic to pick them out of a crowd. They just picked up on the use of Detect Magic and blew up a large chunk of crowd killing your someone.) You need powerful magic to counteract this. You need funds to hire powerful magic. Finally, you need to preserve your source of funds. You do not want to see what happens when a party of 10th-level adventurers decides that the kingdom hassling them needs to be defeated can do if you are at all attached to your campaign setting.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

I seem to recall a thread that went in a similar vein. IIRC it was called something like "Why should a 20th level wizard pay their taxes?"

Answers:

If they're a misanthropic sociopath: no reason what so ever. But don't expect the community to like them. And of course if the PCs try to impose their will on the community people will rise up against the tyrants, although probably not succesfully.

On the other hand if the PCs are good citizens (and even Chaotic characters can be) then they'll do it because the characters are linked to the community. They have family, friends, allies, favourite inns or theatres. Or maybe they just like being seen as 'the big men' and require an audience for it.

Comes down to what sort of characters and what sort of game is being played. I tend toward the second (bonds of community) when I GM. Frankly if I want to run a villains game I'll do it specially.

 

[Warren Okuma]

Then cue 2 months later:
Orc Leader, standing on the mayor's corpse: "Damn good thing they decided to scare off the adventurers that were protecting the city."
Orc 2, standing on mayor's second and commands corpse:"Yup, on with the looting and pillaging!"

PC: Ahem. We're running this dump.

Which, of course, would be predictable. Which is why a competant mayor wouldn't start the whole business in the first place. That is assuming that the mayor is capable of setting up a viable assasination scheme and paying for it, neither of which are good assumptions.

Lots of mayors are incompetent. It catapults the campaign into a new, fresh direction. Especially when the locals (or the city elite) decide to "elect" the PC's as the new mayor. Town campaigns are fun if done right.

When a PC says I'll see you in ten levels...

 

[kigmatzomat]

(but yes, if the players actually feel that the NPCs should treat the PCs like the extremely powerful people who risked death many times to save the townsfolk that the PCs are and are willing to make their displeasure known when the DM has the townsfolk treat the PCs like dirt, well, yes, the campaign is kind of doomed)

Who said "treat them like dirt?" Re-read my example. The players mortgage their property, probably to buy a new magic dingus or to resurrect Bob. The payment they agreed to comes due.

The correct version of the scene given is:
Steve, the money lender accompanied by a registered appraiser of the Royal Court and the town mayor as a witness.

Steve: I loaned you 1,000gp against your land. You agreed to pay it back by dawn this morning. It's noon.
PCs: Umm, we're broke.
Unbeknown to the PCs Steve cornered the grain market and devalued their harvest, ensuring they would be broke.
Steve: I'm sorry to hear that but I've got my own debts to pay. I'll give you a few days to arrange for another place to stay. You'll understand that my agent, an appraiser registered with the Royal Court, will be staying here as well to take inventory.

Normally that would be what we call life. A Paladin would nod in understanding and go pack his things. Heck, the appraiser might even BE a paladin, just to ensure both sides are treated fairly.

Now let's look at the hypothesized PC reaction:

PC to Mayor: Deal with the problem or we pick up and leave, taking what we feel we are owed with us, leaving you at the mercies of enemies Y and Z that we have been protecting you from.
Mayor: But it is a completely legal and binding contract. It's my responsibility to enforce the terms of it.
PC: By demanding we pay up, you're showing your inadequacy to be Mayor. Run along now, and don't forget that there are *always* people willing to bid for the services of people of our power level. We are here because we feel like it, make the area inhospitable and we will leave.

Mayor, Steve & Agent leaves
Steve to others: I told you they were dangerous, power hungry individuals. I warned Baron Bob, Count Carl and Duke Dan but they didn't take me seriously. I will send letters to the nobles and the King, will you include your accounts of this day?
Mayor & Agent: This is unacceptable, of course we will.
Steve: Agent, please stay at the inn on my account and record their actions. Your words, as an outsider, will help ensure it isn't just a minor personal squabble making them say those atrocious things.

Later:
Steve to Gossiping Gerty: It's amazing that after I loaned them the funds to get Bob brought back from the dead that they would refuse to repay me. I offered them time to find another place to stay, the Mayor said he could find something, and they refused! Why, they said that anyone could pay them money to do what they do! Now I wonder how it was that Bob died in the first place and what it is that they really do.

a bit later more:
Steve to Minion Mage Mark: Go use Suggestion on the Tavernkeeper Ted and Shopkeep Sam that they should go ask the PCs to pay their tabs. Do it now before Gerty tells the whole town that those accursed do-gooders have refused to pay for anything anymore and are willing to work for the Goblin King.

just a couple minutes after that:
Steve to self while writing letters to the king: this is working out perfectly! If those idiot adventurers had just packed up and left I'd merely be richer by a small estate but now I can call down the King's wrath upon them and it's their own foolish doing! I'll be lauded for standing up to them! Serving my dark lord is working out well, and all because those idiots threw their weight around!