Stun timing

[Lord Judas]

I have a question. I have a player in my group that is a master of rules-lawyering, min-maxing, and "grey area" tactics (like using a unapproved feat from a 3rd party source because the DM said "ok" to another feat in the same source, known as "Feat Surprise"). Anyhow, I think he might have went over the line and "gamed the system" so to speak. Heres the relevant part of the battle, that I am questioning (I am the DM).

Theres a Evil Wizard (EW) and Evil Fighter(EF) and him, the good guy (GG).

The intiative is:
EW-18
GG-10
EF-6

Round 1:
On 18, EW uses Power Word: Stun, but only gets 2 rounds of Stun
On 10, GG is Stunned- Pass
On 6, EF takes advantage, and uses a Full attack

Round 2:
On 18, EW turns his attention to the rest of the party...
On 10, GG is not stunned, and attacks EF...

"Now I said, hold on a sec, your stunned for 2 rounds." He said that 2 rounds had passed since he was stunned in the first and the second till his turn. It was late and, I didnt feel like arguing the point. But as I drove home, it started to annoy me a bit. I recalled how I built a arch-foe for him, and he defeated him in 3 rounds due to using a "surprise feat" I never heard of from a Mongoose supplement (at the time I didnt know it was a non-core feat as I dont have them memorized). Or taking Exalted feats because I said "ok" to just one then leaving me wondering how he is doing X or Y.

However, the bottom line is I could be wrong. Would he have been stunned or not?

 

[DanMcS]

I have a question. I have a player in my group that is a master of rules-lawyering, min-maxing, and "grey area" tactics (like using a unapproved feat from a 3rd party source because the DM said "ok" to another feat in the same source, known as "Feat Surprise"). Anyhow, I think he might have went over the line and "gamed the system" so to speak. Heres the relevant part of the battle, that I am questioning (I am the DM).

Theres a Evil Wizard (EW) and Evil Fighter(EF) and him, the good guy (GG).

The intiative is:
EW-18
GG-10
EF-6

Round 1:
On 18, EW uses Power Word: Stun, but only gets 2 rounds of Stun
On 10, GG is Stunned- Pass
On 6, EF takes advantage, and uses a Full attack

Round 2:
On 18, EW turns his attention to the rest of the party...
On 10, GG is not stunned, and attacks EF...

"Now I said, hold on a sec, your stunned for 2 rounds." He said that 2 rounds had passed since he was stunned in the first and the second till his turn. It was late and, I didnt feel like arguing the point. But as I drove home, it started to annoy me a bit. I recalled how I built a arch-foe for him, and he defeated him in 3 rounds due to using a "surprise feat" I never heard of from a Mongoose supplement (at the time I didnt know it was a non-core feat as I dont have them memorized). Or taking Exalted feats because I said "ok" to just one then leaving me wondering how he is doing X or Y.

However, the bottom line is I could be wrong. Would he have been stunned or not?

Yes. He should have been stunned until right before the wizard's turn in round 3.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Your player cheated.

Stunned for 2 rounds means that he loses 2 rounds worth of actions; he was stunned until his the wizards initiative point in the 3rd round of melee.

Cheers

 

[Storyteller01]

Yep, you've been duped...

Quick question for everyone (I've had a similar situation). Can a rogue with Stunning attack and two attacks use the first to stun, then the next to gain a sneak attack advantage?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Quick question for everyone (I've had a similar situation). Can a rogue with Stunning attack and two attacks use the first to stun, then the next to gain a sneak attack advantage?

Absolutely.

 

[Lord Judas]

Thanks for the mega-fast reply. I was going to do something fiendish in game to punish this, but I think it would have more effect if I simply go "Im pressing the Rewind button. Your taking your lumps." The battle is not conlcuded (The evil wizard in this case is the BBEG of a year long campaign, and the Evil Fighter is a Blackguard). This all went down two rounds ago, but we had to pause the battle because it was simply too late. This will likely kill his char, but frankly, ive let a lot slide from this player.

Thanks again.

 

[Seravin]

In my game he would have been stunned, but it seems like he might have been technically correct.

Normally the duration of a spell starts and ends on the caster's turn (summon monster, silent image, heat metal, etc).
Re-reading the PW Stun spell, it says the duration lasts for x rounds, not that the victim is stunned for x rounds.
So, two full rounds of the spell did pass; however the wizard certainly didn't get two full rounds of effect from the spell.

I can't back this up with a source, but in our games if a character (or monster) is inflicted with a condition for 'x' amount of time (stun, shaken, etc), the countdown is based on the character's turn - so everyone is affected equally. It never occurred to us to play it any other way.

As an in-house tool we generally we grab a ten-sider and use that as our countdown for the effect (in your example the character would have placed it with a 2 face up. On his turn in the first round, he would have then put the 1 face up. In round 2 he would have taken the die away, and he would have been free to act in round 3).

Two miscellaneous notes.
1. The character shouldn't have known how long he was stunned. Pg 176 of the PHB under Duration - It specifically used PW Stun as an example of a random duration that is kept secret from the players. I generally don't keep the duration from the players unless it's a particularly climactic fight.

2. You may want to tell your group that you're uncomfortable with them taking feats out of 3rd party sources and that every feat has to be pre-approved, not just the source. It wouldn't be out of bounds to question the player on how they envision the feat working for them either.

 

[Lord Judas]

Your right on the 3rd party stuff. All the players are 30+ years old and thats the way its always been (including 2E). This is another "grey area" tactic that he employs. Since I didnt specifically say "all 3rd party stuff comes through the DM this game", believing that to be well known by this point, he takes this to mean "all bets are off". Its annoying that in this day and age, I have to reiterate campaign parameters that every other player knows by heart.

As for the timing rules, Id like to hear other people weigh in, but knowing Plane Sailing's real life status, Id consider him "the authority".

 

[Seravin]

Oh, I agree with Plane Sailing too, I just can't find the rule-cite to support the position, even though our group has been playing it that way for years.

 

[Plane Sailing]

As for the timing rules, Id like to hear other people weigh in, but knowing Plane Sailing's real life status, Id consider him "the authority".

Very kind of you to say so, but I love house-ruling things to make sense from my perspective, so I'd always recommend checking things out in the books to be really sure


Seravin, I think although you are right in saying "Re-reading the PW Stun spell, it says the duration lasts for x rounds, not that the victim is stunned for x rounds.", the effect is the same.

wiz casts stun in init 18 in round 1.
at init 18 in round 2 it has been going for 1 round
at init 18 in round 3 it has been going for 2 rounds and thus ceases (technically at init 19 in rd 3 to be precise IIRC)

so PC is stunned before he acts in round 1, thus losing his round 1 action. In round 2 the stun is still continuing and so he is still stunned. The stun expires in rd 3 before he acts so he acts normally at his init in rd 3.

Thus he lost two actions (in rd 1 and in rd 2) and had the "stunned" condition from rd 1 init 18 through to rd 3 init 19.

The clearest related rules cite I can come up with is in the text of the stunning fist feat. I've emboldened the relevant sentence, which describes how long stunning for 1 round lasts.

STUNNING FIST [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action). A stunned character can’t act, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Special: A monk may select Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. A monk who selects this feat may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to her monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels she has in classes other than monk.
A fighter may select Stunning Fist as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Cheers