Stunning attack vs Stunning Fist feat

[ksignorini]

I know this is a stupid question, but does the monk's "stunning attack" ability count as "Stunning Fist" for the purpose of feat pre-requisites?

Thanks.

 

[Kraedin]

Probably, but it depends on your DM.

 

[ksignorini]

But what do the official rules say?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'm pretty sure the official word is:

Yes, a monk's Stunning Attack (su) counts as a prerequisite for feats requiring the Stunning Fist feat.

This seems pretty straightforward since feats like Extra Stunning Attacks and Pain Touch are geared towards monks. (Pain Touch also requires a 19+ Wisdom. What fighter's going to have that?) I tried looking for a citation for you, but couldn't find one in the PH, DMG, or FAQ.

 

[Kraedin]

But what do the official rules say?

By the letter of the PHB, you absolutly can not use Stunning Attack as Stunning Fist for the purposes of feat prerequisites. Stunning Attack doesn't act like the feat, and is not the feat, and therefore does not meet prerequisites.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

By the letter of the PHB, you absolutly can not use Stunning Attack as Stunning Fist for the purposes of feat prerequisites. Stunning Attack doesn't act like the feat, and is not the feat, and therefore does not meet prerequisites.

Where are you getting this from? Nowhere in the PH does it say that Stunning Attack is not the same as Stunning Fist. True, it doesn't say it is and is therefore not proof in and of itself that the two abilities are the same, but the two are hardly "absolutely" not the same. From the PH pg 39:

Stunning Attack: The monk must declare she is using a stun attack before making the attack roll (thus, a missed attack roll ruins the attempt.) A foe struck by the monk is forced to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10+ one-half the monk's level+ Wisdom modifier), in addition to receiving normal damage. If the saving throw fails, the opponent is stunned for 1 round.

From the PH pg 85:

Benefit: Declare that you are using the feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a missed attack roll ruins the attempt). It forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10+ one-half your level+ your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. If the defender fails, he is stunned for 1 round...

The two seem to work exactly the same to me. The only difference is that a monk's uses per day are 1/level/day, while fighters with the Stunning Fist feat gets 1/4 levels/day.

Also, ruling that Stunning Fist and Stunning Attack are different means that a monk would be forced to take Stunning Fist before being able to take Extra Stunning Attacks (Sword and Fist,) which is just silly.

 

[Kraedin]

One is a supernatural ability, the other is a non-magical feat.

One save DC is 10 + 1/2 monk level + Wisdom modifier, the other is 10 + 1/2 character level + Wisdom modifier.

One is usable once per day per monk level, the other is usable once per day per four character levels.

One is called Stunning Attack, one is called Stunning Fist.

They're similar; they aren't close to being the same.

Sword and Fist is a huge pile of crap from a rules standpoint. Any ruling influenced by that book is about as reliable as WotC Customer Service.

Finally, the monk class is poorly written. If you'll refer to the equipment chapter, unarmed strike is listed as a simple melee weapon. The monk isn't proficient with all simple weapons, and is thusly non-proficient with unarmed strikes. And of course, "the monk's running abiliy is actually a supernatural ability," when what they mean is "the monk's faster movement speed is actually a supernatural ability;" and the infamous "as an outsider, a 20th level monk is subject to spells that repel enchanted creatures, such as protection from law."

I wouldn't expect any monk ability to make sense or be well-written.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

They're similar, they aren't close to being the same.

They're similar, and therefore are close to being the same. The two passages I quoted are virtually identical. They simply changed "monk level" to "character level" and modified how often you can use the ability.

Finally, the monk class is poorly written. If you'll refer to the equipment chapter, unarmed strike is listed as a simple melee weapon. The monk isn't proficient with all simple weapons, and is thusly non-proficient with unarmed strikes. I wouldn't expect any monk ability to make sense or be well-written.

The problem there is with the table, not the monk class description. As all creatures are proficient in their own unarmed attacks, "unarmed strike" should have been listed above the sub-heading "Simple Weapons" rather than misleadingly included among them. But a bad table doesn't prove that everything in the monk class description can be considered fallacious.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

From the Sword and Fist FAQ:

The prerequisites for the Pain Touch feat are base
attack bonus +2 or more, the Stunning Fist feat, and a
Wisdom of 19+. The Stunning Fist feat itself requires an
attack bonus of +8 or higher, so aren't the Pain Touch
prerequisites in error?

In this case, no. The monk's stunning attack counts as a
"virtual" Stunning Fist feat and any monk with a base attack
bonus of +2 or more and a Wisdom of 19 or higher can
qualify for Pain Touch.

 

[Kraedin]

You know, there's no real reason to infer that creatures are automatically proficient with unarmed strikes.

The only thing the books says on that topic is that they're simple weapons...

Edit: Stupid Sage, ruining my fun.