D&D General Stun: The Fun-Killer

[Distracted DM]

I’ve routinely changed monster and NPC abilities that stun into dazed, right around when Tasha’s came out. Tasha’s has the Tasha’s mind whip spell that inflicts a condition very similar to the 2024 playtest dazed condition (adapted from the 4e dazed of course). It’s been working out great. Sometimes I up the damage of the enemy attack a little bit to compensate for the slight reduction in offensive punch, but regardless of any other adjustments, the dazed condition is just so much more fun for the players.

I still keep all player-inflicted stuns as they are. The DM doesn’t have to skip turns and not play so the harsh action denial doesn’t matter in that direction.

Oh man I hated that spell, the wizard started regularly employing it against Purple Worms and such. Really killed some encounters for the low low cost of a 2nd level spell- reminds me of my Silvery Barbs hatred

 

[Rabulias]

Paralyzed

• A paralyzed creature is incapacitated (see the condition) and can’t move or speak.

Huh. I have been running the Paralyzed condition wrong in letting targets maintain Concentration. I will begin using this RAW, but it feels wrong to me. Anyone else feel that way?

 

[Fanaelialae]

This is another great idea I've seen tossed around and possibly used in other systems- I think I recall MCDM talking about it too.

My first thought was "it's not so good of a choice if the creature is going to drop unconscious/dead from the action," but the stipulation could be added that it couldn't reduce a creature below 1hp.

the question then, is what is the cost of doing so? HP is the easy target because it's the universal resource.

If anyone recalls what systems might implement it I'd be curious to see what they do.

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with any systems that do this (it's entirely possible I came across this idea somewhere, but I unfortunately don't have any recollection of it ATM). This was how I was thinking of implementing it though.

Soul Burn
You can flare your soul to gain a brief burst of power, although doing so is dangerous.
At the beginning of your turn, unless you are dead, petrified, or unconscious, you can activate Soul Burn as a free action (even if you normally could not take actions). Until the end of your turn, you ignore the effects all negative conditions and other statuses. At the end of your turn, you take damage equal to 25% of your maximum hit points. This damage cannot be mitigated in any way.

The soul "flavoring" is rooted in the lore of my campaign setting. The damage isn't applied until the end of your turn, meaning that if the damage would take you to zero, you still get to act before you start dying.

 

[Quickleaf]

Huh. I have been running the Paralyzed condition wrong in letting targets maintain Concentration. I will begin using this RAW, but it feels wrong to me. Anyone else feel that way?

Yes, I agree that it doesn't feel right according to the narrative I imagine being paralyzed looks like.

 

[Distracted DM]

Back when we played AD&D with henchmen/hirelings, a player getting paralyzed by a ghoul or carrion crawler.... well, we never had a conversation about "this is disruptive to our enjoyment of the game." Probably because combat was significantly faster. And because there were fallback NPCs the player could hop into the role of until their PC was back on their feet. Aaand because we were kids/teens without a mature understanding of game design. Whereas with modern D&D (3e/4e/5e) combat has a longer handling time, so the player feels that "being out of the action" more.

Anyhow, while I agree with the premise of modifying the Stunned condition, I think it's even more important to remember the big picture intent = maintaining player engagement. IOW there are other levers we can manipulate (e.g. making combat extremely fast, or having fallback NPCs/companions, or flashbacks when stunned/taken out of play, or giving every monster with stunned a specific weakness/workaround unique to its manner of stunning), which would get us to the same end goal.



Effect wise, that's true, stunned is rough, but it isn't the most terribly impactful of all the conditions. But you also need to look at how easy they are to remove. For example, compare it to Paralyzed.

Ending Unconscious just needs some magical healing - it's the easiest to remove. It also goes away on its own in 1d4 hours iirc.

Ending Paralyzed requires Lesser Restoration (2nd). It usually lasts until "save ends."

Ending Petrified requires Greater Restoration (5th). It lasts the longest, being permanent until intervention.

Ending Stunned requires Power Word Heal (9th). It lasts either "until end of next turn" or "save ends."

You definitely grasp the end goal, I very much appreciate your rundown.
Yes, it's absolutely because modern DnD rounds taking so long- a player losing their turn and a lack of fallback options like viable warrior hirelings etc. means they're going to be out of participating in a good portion of game time.
As far as "other levers" go, those largely fall into house rule territory- but I'm open to suggestions+examples

 

[mellored]

I’d be interested if it was changed, but I doubt it. I didn’t know about that new condition, it’s interesting but too light of a change for Stun. I think Stun should be scary but not “don’t get to play the game.”

I don't think they are changing Stunned (or Paralyzed).
But by adding Dazed, they can make it more rare.

I expect more things like...

If they fail the save they are Dazed.
If they fail twice they are Stunned instead.

Also, you mentioned Mind Blast that specifically targets Int. Personally I house rule that all savings throws get +1/2 proficiency.

 

[Stalker0]

I am a fan of making conditions impose danger rather than inaction.

Instead of removing actions, have it increase the crit range of attacks, or have crits do max damage.

The fun should be players deciding (do I stay in the fight and risk getting my butt kicked, or do i pull back to safety?)

 

[Lanefan]

Missing a few turns isn't the end of the world. Hasn't the game already been nerfed enough?

Petrified​

• A petrified creature is transformed, along with any nonmagical object it is wearing or carrying, into a solid inanimate substance (usually stone). Its weight increases by a factor of ten, and it ceases aging.

Side note: interesting (and sad) that magic items don't get petrified any more.

Also interesting that while not stated, it's implied that a petrified creature remains alive throughout; which has long been a point of debate in our home circles.

 

[Lanefan]

Edit: In case the question of "but are monsters more commonly immune to stunned or paralyzed?" or some variation of that question comes up, I'm pinning this spreadsheet from FontanaPink on Reddit. I don't have time to do numbers break down now, but quick visual scroll-through confirms that in the MM, at least, immunity to paralyzed is definitely more prevalent than immunity to stunned.

Is it possible that the comparitive rarity of immunity to stun is a design decision intended to throw Monks a bone?

 

[Quickleaf]

I am a fan of making conditions impose danger rather than inaction.

Instead of removing actions, have it increase the crit range of attacks, or have crits do max damage.

The fun should be players deciding (do I stay in the fight and risk getting my butt kicked, or do i pull back to safety?)

Absolutely. This plays out in different ways tactically (in the midst of combat), than it does strategically (thinking about the approach to a dangerous situation before combat).

I know the strategic approach is less in vogue with modern D&D, but one of the cool things about carrion crawlers, ghouls, mind flayers and such in older editions (not necessarily a rules thing, more a play style) was that they encouraged out-of-the-box thinking. This did require player foreknowledge about the unique nature of the threat posed...which may not be something the designers want in the game as much. But the good part was that this led to players talking about:

"Ghouls? Crap, let's try to avoid fighting them in melee. We don't want to get paralyzed and dogpiled! Wasn't there a pit trap we passed in that hallway? Rogue, why don't you lure them this way, while the rest of us post up behind the pit trap with our arrows and spells at the ready?"

I don't know how much of that gets lost when we start lessening the impact of conditions like stunned or paralyzed. It's probably a shades of grey situation. But I can recall my old group (with plenty experienced players) facing carrion crawlers in 5e, and they waded into combat and didn't give a second thought to getting paralyzed... I was able to magnify the threat by making the crawlers aquatic & having them drag a paralyzed PC into the water to drown them... but that was me making it dangerous in spite of the paralyzation tweaks*, not because of them.

* I'm referring to the duration of the paralyzation across editions, not house rules, for anyone wondering (i know you know Stalker). In AD&D, the paralyzation lasted 2d6 x 10 minutes, compared to 5e where it lasts until "save ends" (less than a minute).