Stupid Avenger

[Grimmjow]

So everytime i try to use a floorpit or anykind of trap my group just sees it with perception, it bugs me speccaly when my brother uses his avenger at will power to just pull the bad guys into the trap so i never get to do anything with my monsters exept get them out of the holes in the floor, any ideas

 

[riotshieldnation]

Are you giving your monsters a saving throw to fall into the pit? IIRC you need to make a saving throw or fall prone at the entrance to the pit when being forced into one.

As for the group always seeing traps, try forcing them to make dungeoneering checks instead:

Dungeoneering (Wisdom): You have picked up knowledge and skills related to dungeoneering, including finding your way through dungeon complexes, navagating winding caverns, recognizing dungeon hazards, ...

Perception (Wisdom): Make a perception check to notice clues, detect secret doors, spot imminent dangers, find traps, ...

Despite perception saying specifically "find traps", when I DM, I always use perception to tell them "something here is amiss...", and make them use dungeoneering (a really underutilized skill IMO) to actually find the trap (and then thievery to disable it of course).

So I guess that's a bit of a houserule? Perception is OP IMHO.

 

[chitzk0i]

You could try giving vaguer information. Instead of "there's a pit trap covering these four squares" you could try "something seems off about the floor in this area". When it's appropriate to the monster, you could swap out a trait or utility power for a 1/encounter free action to negate forced movement or a dwarf-like "reduce all forced movement by one square".

 

[jbear]

You are thinking about traps the wrong way. A good trap is not: "You're walking down the corridor and ... gotcha! you fall into a hole! Mwahahaha!" This adds nothing to the game or adventure in general. There is no tension created apart from the players continually being pedantically careful about every passage they walk down and every door the open.

The tension should start when the trap is discovered. "Something here is amiss" is a good start. Perception reveals little clues that get the PCs alarm bells ringing. The more they discover the more the tension grows as they realise they are going to have to deal with the trap somehow.

Simple example using a rudimentary trap like a hidden pit. It blocks the passage way completely, let's say 15ft wide. It goes for 20 ft. A pretty difficult jump. At the end there is 5 ft of space (15ft wide) and the passage ends with some type of stone carving in the wall of a lion with an open mouth. Something glints from within the mouth.

So PCs have their objective: get to the lion head carving to see what is shining. They know there is either a massive jump or they need to use flight or teleportation to avoid the pit. So the party spots the trap. No big deal. Now they have to figure out what to do about it.

Smart adventurers might make the false surface drop and climb down to the bottom of the pit with the intention of climbing up the other side. They might not check that the bottom of the pit is where the real trap is. A pressure plate opens small holes along the base of the pit and acid begins to pour in. They might spot that too, or at least a few clues that make alarm bells ring so they attempt simply to jump/fly/teleport.

They may not check that the other side also has a pressure plate (it's quite far away at 20ft to spot properly) that causes the lion mouth to roar, a sonic blast that pushes the PC back towards the trapped pit.
etc etc etc.

If your going to just throw in a hidden pit in a room full of goblins, they deserve to be thrown into the pit by your avenger. But if you put some thought and work into your traps so that they aren't "gotcha traps", they are an obstacle that needs be dealt with no matter what the situation, an added and constant factor that has to be taken into account apart from the room full of goblins, one not so easily turned to the PCs advantage as a pit in the middle of the room.

 

[Unwise]

Good advice Jbear. What I like to do is add in a few additional issues when a trap is spotted. Such as:

1. They see that those statues have movable heads and a pipe in their mouth, but they have no idea what that does. This is perception, not thievery or dungeoneering that might tell them what something is, they just see it.

2. They might even spot the trap, but they don't know exactly how it works or how to disarm it. That takes a standard action from the rogue. Does the party delay their actions if the rogue is slow off the initiative? I like PCs finding the trap just as combat starts and they have not had a chance to deal with it.

3. Even obvious pit-traps are cool if the enemy has enough artillery and controllers. Either risk the athletics check to jump it, or risk getting shot at or slid into the pit.

4. Traps need to be activated. Without a thievery check, they might see what they presume is a pit-trap, but that does not mean it is a pressure-plate system. The kobolds might have to pull a hidden leaver to activate it.

5. Hazards and smart automaton traps are cool too. A kobold pulls a leaver and a crossbow pops down from the ceiling and starts shooting anyone that is not a kobold. Flame jets shoot from the walls every second round following a set pattern. The kobolds know what it is, can the PCs work it out in time?

One of my players was first level with 22 passive perception, an Avenger too coincidentally. I had to be sure to remember that just because you see something, does not mean you know what it is. For instance, "this room has extra deep grouting and odd shaped floor tiles" I could say that even when no trap is present, they could make a dungeoneering check to see if that is just the style of masonry, or thievery to check if some of the tiles really are pressure plates. Annoyingly, the Avenger in my campaign was also trained in thievery, dungeoneering and stealth, so really was awesome at disabling traps and hazards.

 

[Ryujin]

I have a Kalashtar Pacifist Cleric, in the group I DM, that gives me similar issues. If there's something that will boost his passive perception, he's got it. I refuse to be stopped by him. Seeing an area of floor that looks different than the rest doesn't tell him what happens when he gets there. It doesn't stop me from having creatures, in the area, that can take advantage of that trap via something like forced movement or use it as protection from melee attackers, which using ranged attacks themselves. Like stairs, chasms, and flaming lava it's just another terrain feature, that defenders can make use of. SHOULD make use of.

 

[mkill]

I have a Kalashtar Pacifist Cleric, in the group I DM, that gives me similar issues. If there's something that will boost his passive perception, he's got it. I refuse to be stopped by him.

Even if you notice a monster with Perception, you still have to defeat it. By itself, it's hardly game-breaking.

Now, some groups are very good at changing the odds of a battle in their favor, by scouting, setting traps, and preparing buffs... It's a question of play style. It's not wrong, it's just a bit different from the heroic kick-in-the-door style of 4E.

The player of the Kalashtar chose to put his resources into Perception, so don't make it a problem, roll with it. In fact, reward his choice by preparing information that he can gather through his excellent perception check. Prepare extra-difficult encounters, that the party can beat by good preparation. Ideally, build the tools to beat the encounter right into the encounter.
(If that means they get more XP and advance faster and this becomes problematic, just dial back total XP...)

Example: If they fight a lich, drop a few hints on how to identify and destroy the phylactery, which should weaken him and allow the party to defeat him.
Or: Place some fire elementals in a tunnel that can be flooded.

You don't have to do this all the time, just often enough that your players will start looking out for these things. You're the DM, you have more control over the game then you think.

 

[Ryujin]

Trust me, I'm aware of all that. Sometimes I use the Pacifist's superior perception to let the party know just how completely screwed they are, just before everything goes to hell. One of my players occasionally refers to me as a "cruel and unusual DM."