Stupid epic level question

[Derulbaskul]

Can you please explain how it's not specifically addressed, but that it is clarified?

It's not specifically addressed (except incorrectly on page 209 of the DMG) but, as per the ELH rules, Epic BAB and save progressions only accrue once a character has 21 or more character levels. I believe that this thus implicity excludes monster hit dice from the Epic progression because they are not mentioned.

The subsequent clarification that Eremite refers to is one provided in an issue of Dragon or on the website. He just can't remember exactly where he saw it....

 

[Mordane76]

Actually, because the 3.5E DMG came AFTER the ELH, the material in the DMG supercedes and updates the epic level rules.

Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.

: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.
Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

ECL replaces character level - once your ECL reaches 21, you're an epic character, meaning you start picking up epic attack and save bonuses instead of class-based attack and save bonuses. It also means that you can start selecting epic feats with your general feats. These are the rules as written, as much as they might limit certain powerful monster types.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

ECL replaces character level - once your ECL reaches 21, you're an epic character, meaning you start picking up epic attack and save bonuses instead of class-based attack and save bonuses. It also means that you can start selecting epic feats with your general feats. These are the rules as written, as much as they might limit certain powerful monster types.

Or, even better, we can quote from the actual rules section:

Monsters as Epic Characters The epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character levels, using the creature's effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels. For example, a bugbear (3HD, +2 LA) that is also a 14th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus.

So, in the RAW, racial HD and LA count towards being epic for terms of class-related bonuses.

I do have one problem with this. It's completely unfair for players of monster PCs; they're supposed to pay for their extra abilities by means of level adjustment, not terms of future advancement. To explain, let's say I play a ghaele eladrin who's 20th level (10HD + 10LA). When I get enough XP for 21st level, no matter what class I take, even if it's another level of ghaele eladrin, I get epic bonuses. This might be okay, except for Cousin Altuniel, who's an NPC eladrin, with 11 HD, and because he's a monster, he gets the full benefit of his HD. I'm stuck with two attacks/round FOREVER, and he can get up to four, just because he's not a PC. That seems entirely too silly to me.

I much prefer the idea that epic BAB and saves only start once you hit a total of 20 HD. I don't mind racial HD being included, as that makes sense.

Brad

 

[Mordane76]

Thank you for the DMG quote - I had to go SRD at work... finding stuff in there is always hard for me.


You're welcome to feel however you like, but this is in the Rules Forum, so it's about how the rules work as written. Personally, I agree with you - it does seem to penalize monster characters perhaps a little too harshly, but how we'd LIKE it done should go in House Rules. And actually, they ARE supposed to pay for their abilities both ways - LA as designed specifically slows down advancement of more powerful characters to keep them in line with their more 'normal' counterparts. Overall, I think the RAW are fair, though; many monsters (at least those people are generally interested in playing) have powerful supernatural, spell-like, and extraordinary abilities, as well as usually possessing powerful initial stat adjustments; from a balance standpoint, the rules keep more 'mundane' characters in line with monster PCs. Oddity races, like kobolds and goblins, are LA/HD +0, so they're just like mundane characters anyway.


And your example is not silly - NPC eladrin will last only a few encounters at most, if he even becomes involved in a combat at all. Your PC eladrin's abliities will effect the outcome of every encounter his party is invovled in - they're worth more than the NPC eladrin's abilities. If you're concerned about this discrepancy, there's an easy fix for it - make all your monsters with class levels like they were PCs. Both ways are legit by the RAW, it becomes just matter of taste.

 

[saucercrab]

It's not specifically addressed (except incorrectly on page 209 of the DMG) but, as per the ELH rules, Epic BAB and save progressions only accrue once a character has 21 or more character levels. I believe that this thus implicity excludes monster hit dice from the Epic progression because they are not mentioned.

Unfortunately, that text in the 3.5 DMG hasn't been errat'ed, so it's official (even if it doesn't make sense). And the ELH does mention monster HD. I think you may be confusing class levels with character level.

First, Savage Species (page 5) says that monsters have character levels (& that level adjustment is not included, only class levels & the base creature's Hit Dice). So, with that in mind, reading page 25 of the ELH (under the sidebar Monsters as Epic Characters), 3rd paragraph,

Regardless of its ECL, a monster with class levels uses the base attack bonus & base save bonus progressions of its class rather than the progressions shown on Table 1-1) until it has 20 character levels. Beginning with its 21st character level, it uses the progressions shown on Table 1-1.

indicates that monster HD do count toward total character level & the break point of the 21st character level.

Well, that's how I understand it.

 

[Alzrius]

From what I can see, it depends on if they are class levels or racial hit dice.

When you become epic (by having an ECL of 21 or more for PCs, and a total racial/class hit dice of 21 or more for NPCs), then you only increase your attack and save progressions by the ELH listing for any class level advancements. Racial hit dice continue to use the advancement normal for their type.

Hence, an Outsider with 12 hit dice and eight class levels would use the epic progression for attacks and saves if he gained another class level. If he gained a thirteenth natural hit die somehow, he'd gain attack/save increases according to the listing for the Outsider type.

 

[Eremite]

I believe the way that the designers meant for it to work was as follows:

1. Monster HD never get Epic BAB and save progressions.
2. Once a creature has 21 or more character class levels, Epic BAB and save progressions apply.

Of course, the various quotes prove otherwise in one sense; more accurately, they prove that even the pros at WotC actually have no idea how the Epic rules are supposed to work.

C'mon, WotC; it's time for an expanded, corrected, EDITED and PLAYTESTED ELH!!!

 

[saucercrab]

Of course, the various quotes prove otherwise in one sense; more accurately, they prove that even the pros at WotC actually have no idea how the Epic rules are supposed to work.

C'mon, WotC; it's time for an expanded, corrected, EDITED and PLAYTESTED ELH!!!

Hear Hear!

[sing-song voice]But it's not gonna' happen...[/sing-song voice]

 

[Mordane76]

You're right, it won't happen - why would WoTC re-edit, re-correct, and re-print the ELH when they've (presumably) already done this, and then took those rules apart and spread them into the DMG and the Complete series of books? Why would they make one book when they've already gotten a large segment of their target market to buy five books containing these rules already?


As for errata, perhaps this section of text won't see any errata because maybe it's the way the designers actually think it should work. I mean... it's not that unfair, considering the power most monsters possess in the way of special abilities. Just because some people don't like the way the rules work doesn't mean they aren't the rules. If you don't like them, then by all means start up a thread in House Rules about how you think they should work, or write WoTC and ask for their clarifacation... but if you've read some of the thread on their FAQ, I wouldn't be too trusting of their reply...

 

[saucercrab]

As for errata, perhaps this section of text won't see any errata because maybe it's the way the designers actually think it should work. I mean... it's not that unfair, considering the power most monsters possess in the way of special abilities.

You don't think it's unfair. Some of us do. :shrugs:

LA is already supposed to be the punishment for playing certain monsters (by way of reduced HD from "phantom levels"). Having LA also count towards epic BAB & saves is just kicking you when you're down, IMO.

Ah well, I too think this thread is done, neh?