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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Oofta" data-source="post: 9241235" data-attributes="member: 6801845">It seems that some people want rollplay to drive everything outside of combat instead of roleplay.  I don't.  We tried that in 4E and it sucked the soul out of the game, especially initially.  [SPOILER="Brief explanation of skill challenges"]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Roll for initiative and go in order, everyone has to participate.  </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There were primary skills with a DC of easy or moderate to pass, and you couldn't repeat a skill.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The DM told you what skills were primary</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If you thought up something that wasn't on the list and could justify it, it became a hard DC.  </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You had to succeed on X number of skills before Y failures depending on the complexity.  </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There was no way to shortcut a skill challenge, you had to keep going until you had X number of successes.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Appropriate powers could potentially count as a success.</li> </ul>If you really want details: <a href="https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-L3dYW-IFahTdYhpPtyH" target="_blank">https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-L3dYW-IFahTdYhpPtyH</a>[/SPOILER]The main takeaway is that it really didn't matter what you said or how you said it.  Saying "I'm going to use diplomacy" had the same result as a detailed and convincing argument.  There was no way to bypass the skill challenge through a clever ideas or creative play, in fact thinking outside the box was penalized.  The DM basically had a script in mind and you had to follow the script to the point they were satisfied.  It was a terrible system as far as I was concerned, a prime example of how not to resolve non-combat encounters.I still use something like skill challenges now, following the style they give in the 5E DMG example of chase rules, although I try to be flexible and encourage creativity.  So in social encounters I don't expect the player to be silver tongued but I do expect them to explain what they are saying and judge that by content.  If I'm uncertain if what is said is unconvincing I'll ask for a roll.  But I also love when the players come up with a creative solution that totally bypasses things and gives the group an easy success that bypasses what I thought they needed to do.So I think the attempt at a generic out of combat system was a failure.  I think some of the ideas behind it can be used, and they give an example in the DMG.  I just don't want to ever go back to gamifying things that I think are best left up to judgement and creative solutions.  Could they come up with a dozen different subsystems to cover the majority of scenarios? I suppose.  But to get them right to have things that worked better than 4E skill challenges (which took several pages to explain) there would have to be significant effort.  In addition if you don't have a generic framework you have to have several subsystems, but then if you lack a subsystem for some type of play for some people it would indicate you can't do that with D&D.  When only a small percentage of people think any of this is necessary it just isn't going to happen.  On the other hand, a quick google search will bring up several options and suggestions in blogs or videos for most of the styles listed by the OP.  I don't see why this is a bad thing, people who have issues running a political campaign can do some googling and find multiple options, then use ideas they like.Other games may have subsystems people feel work well.  I just don't see how you could have a system significantly rule driven without it resulting in rollplay.  Which, there's nothing wrong with that style of game it's just not what I want when I play D&D.  But I would also assume that those games are generally more focused than D&D.</blockquote>

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