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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9245606" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Kinda becomes rather circular, then, doesn't it? Because the claim was that divine magic was somehow out of line for having something removed. Now it's that <em>everything</em> needs to have extra things added on to make it the same.</p><p></p><p>Sounds to me like--as I said above, echoing back Lanefan's words--there's a thing here where you're wanting something really specific just to make something work out one specific way, and doing an awful lot of work to make it happen.</p><p></p><p>It's not interesting nor engaging to have to jump through a ton of hoops just to <em>get</em> to play. What is valuable is when learning, developing intuitions and skills, is rewarded with success, and when mistakes come with costs, but still offer the opportunity to learn and try again. Believe me, I'm very much of the opinion that the massive push toward ultra-simplicity in game design (not just in TTRPGs, but in video games as well) is revealing its dark side--mistaking the easy path (shallow, frictionless experiences) with the good path (accessible but deep experiences.) But bringing back tedium and annoyance is not the way to make things deeper. It just creates even more incentive to minmax away the tedium.</p><p></p><p>Real, serious game design, which offers diverse and meaningful challenges and actually makes it <em>fun</em> to tackle those challenges as they are rather than trying to subvert and suborn the system that presents them, is hard. Fully achievable! But hard. Tedium and triviality are the easy paths. We can, and should, expect better from game designers.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9245606, member: 6790260"] Kinda becomes rather circular, then, doesn't it? Because the claim was that divine magic was somehow out of line for having something removed. Now it's that [I]everything[/I] needs to have extra things added on to make it the same. Sounds to me like--as I said above, echoing back Lanefan's words--there's a thing here where you're wanting something really specific just to make something work out one specific way, and doing an awful lot of work to make it happen. It's not interesting nor engaging to have to jump through a ton of hoops just to [I]get[/I] to play. What is valuable is when learning, developing intuitions and skills, is rewarded with success, and when mistakes come with costs, but still offer the opportunity to learn and try again. Believe me, I'm very much of the opinion that the massive push toward ultra-simplicity in game design (not just in TTRPGs, but in video games as well) is revealing its dark side--mistaking the easy path (shallow, frictionless experiences) with the good path (accessible but deep experiences.) But bringing back tedium and annoyance is not the way to make things deeper. It just creates even more incentive to minmax away the tedium. Real, serious game design, which offers diverse and meaningful challenges and actually makes it [I]fun[/I] to tackle those challenges as they are rather than trying to subvert and suborn the system that presents them, is hard. Fully achievable! But hard. Tedium and triviality are the easy paths. We can, and should, expect better from game designers. [/QUOTE]
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