Subclasses, Prestige Classes, or Themes?

Frankly, I think a themes approach can do all of the above, given the assumption that every additional theme adds flexibility (in terms of new options for character powers and abilities) but little to no extra power.

A class then becomes a special theme in which there is always at least one option to choose from when you gain new powers and abilities. The simplest character then becomes one with just a single class theme, and the simplest classes just present a laundry list of abilities gained by the character at each level, with no choice required on the part of the player.

Under such a system, sub-classes can be represented by a theme that grants the character additional choices for powers and abilities at certain levels. The player could choose a benefit from the original class or from the sub-class theme. This would make the character more complex, as he would have more than one theme, but (ideally) not more powerful than a character with just the base class theme. As a side note, multiclassing can also be done by giving the character access to two class themes.

Prestige classes then become themes with prerequisites, either mechanical or role-playing. Only a character who meets the prerequisites can select that theme.

The advantage to the themes approach is that you don't need a separate sub-class for essentially the same concept, e.g. a two-weapon wielder that could be either a figher or a rogue (or, indeed, a wizard who just happens to have a more martial bent).
 

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I like the idea of having a class, say fighter, that then has options at various points; ie choose between ability a and ability b, each being about as useful. And by choosing ability A, you then later get to choose between ability A1 and A2, but you can't go back and pick up B1 or B2 unless at some point you have the chance to get ability B first.

I suppose that's a "talent tree"...

And DM's could sub in different abilities if they wanted to, or there could be multiple choices instead of 2. Each subtree would get its own name... and therefore could be thought of as a prestige class or theme or whatever you want to call it.
 

Themes. I love themes. Problem is you need a lot, but they likely won't take up as many pages as say, PrCs.

But I think Themes and Subclasses can go together. Themes are for concepts like say "Noble" or "Ordained priest", anything that goes on top of an existing class.
 

It's not entirely necessary to have the same number of sub-classes under each primary class, and some just don't fit into any. Here's where I'd start, if I were at the helm: (primary classes in bold)

Fighter
--- Ranger
--- Paladin
--- Cavalier or Knight
Cleric
--- Druid or Nature Cleric
--- War Cleric
Wizard
--- Illusionist
--- Necromancer
Thief or Rogue
--- Assassin
Monk
--- Psyonicist (if psyonics are to be in the game, to me this is an open question)
Bard (after yet another complete redesign; maybe a sub-class of Rogue if the design points that way)

I intentionally left out a few:

Sorcerer (in my system all casters would mechanically work like Sorcerers so nothing would distinguish them from Wizards)
Barbarian (I have always maintained Barbarian should be a sub-race of Human, not a class)
Artificer (don't see their point)
Warlord (don't see their point)

Lanefan
 

I could see all three working. All of the above. Themes would just be the names of the Sub Classes and Prestige class

For example the base fighter could have something like 4th edition Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority. The Fighter could instead choose the Wild Theme and trade them for Rage for the Barbarian subclass. Or take the Street theme for Sneak Attack and the Thug subclass. Or the War theme to get Inspiring Word and the Warlord subclass.

Then the fighter can take another theme for a prestige class like Duelist or Gladiator.

Fighter
-Barbarian (Wild)
-Thug (Street)
-Warlord (War)
---Master Archer (Nature)
---Duelist (Noble)
---Gladiator (Dungeon)
 


Cleric


Paladin
Priest
Druid/Shaman

Fighter


Knight
Barbarian (beserker/Slayer)
Warlord

Rogue

Ranger
Assassin
Bard

Wizard


Warlock (sword wielding mage)
Specialist - illusionist, necromancer etc
 

Frankly, I think a themes approach can do all of the above, given the assumption that every additional theme adds flexibility (in terms of new options for character powers and abilities) but little to no extra power.

A class then becomes a special theme in which there is always at least one option to choose from when you gain new powers and abilities. The simplest character then becomes one with just a single class theme, and the simplest classes just present a laundry list of abilities gained by the character at each level, with no choice required on the part of the player.

Under such a system, sub-classes can be represented by a theme that grants the character additional choices for powers and abilities at certain levels. The player could choose a benefit from the original class or from the sub-class theme. This would make the character more complex, as he would have more than one theme, but (ideally) not more powerful than a character with just the base class theme. As a side note, multiclassing can also be done by giving the character access to two class themes.

Prestige classes then become themes with prerequisites, either mechanical or role-playing. Only a character who meets the prerequisites can select that theme.

The advantage to the themes approach is that you don't need a separate sub-class for essentially the same concept, e.g. a two-weapon wielder that could be either a figher or a rogue (or, indeed, a wizard who just happens to have a more martial bent).

I'm thinking along these lines as well. I'd XP you, but apparently it's too soon.

I could see a character (at a roughly 3.5-like complexity setting) as consisting of:

A race (inherent features only)
A class (a structure built on top of a theme)
Two additional themes

All classes are themselves associated with at least one theme (defining subclasses). The abilities of the class' theme are the main source of a character's abilities, and the structure of the class determines the how and when of other advancement. (Classic jack-of-all-trade types, for example, might be able to draw from their non-class themes more frequently.) It is also possible some themes might be compatible with more than one class (e.g. necromancer theme as wizard or cleric).

Themes encapsulate a bundle of mechanics. The themes cover cultural background, professions, racial progressions, inherent or acquired templates, multi-classing, and later in the game "prestige classes". A principle ability is gained when a theme is taken, and all others are optional avenues of character advancement. Although all classes have associated themes, most themes will not have associated classes. Racial themes probably should be subclasses, however, so that a person who wants to play an "Elf" in that most classic sense can absolutely do so. Multi-classing is a snap.

Finally, I'd make all themes contribute to a character's starting package of fundamental stats (skills, proficiencies, starting hit points, and maybe even hit point progression or initial ability score bonuses).

An example character in this system (with placeholders and illustrative guesses):

Race - Dwarf (Gains Darkvision and "Stout")
Class - Fighter [Tactician]
Theme1 - Dwarf
Theme2 - Smith

Tactician*:
"Tactical Insight" ability
3 hp + 1/level
Insight skill. Has access to Athletics and Perception.
Proficient in all basic weapons and a single martial weapon.
Proficient in light and medium armor.
*I imagine this theme defines a subclass roughly equivalent to the 4e warlord. As the dwarf did choose this as his class theme, Tactical Insight is the marquee ability for the character. Besides its most important mechanical properties, Tactical Insight might also specifically let the character use the Insight skill for checks related to military tactics, which is presumably too specific a category to merit its own skill. This could just be a role-playing aid, but perhaps some Tactician abilities even call for these checks. Either way, a theme is the perfect place to make such an extension explicit.

Dwarf*:
"Impervious" ability
3 hp + 1/level
Has access to Dungeoneering and Endurance.
Proficient in all basic weapons, and a single martial weapon.
Proficient in light, medium, and heavy armor.
* I'm treating this as though it were a fighter subclass which might call to mind the BECMI dwarf. Optional abilities might include improvements to "Stout", some form of magic resistance, etc. This particular dwarf didn't take it as a class, but could still cherry-pick a few classic abilities along the way.

Smith*:
"Perfect Forge" ability
2 hp + 1/2 levels
Endurance, Profession (Smithing). Has access to a single other skill of your choice.
Proficient in all hammers.
Proficient in light armor.
*I see most profession-type themes granting crafting abilities or the like, more skills, more flexible skill choices, as well as special skills that are all-purpose for whenever the player can justify them. I figure this particular theme eventually allows forging magic weapons, bonuses when using weapons you forged yourself, and so on.

(I'm played around with hp above, just to see how making them this granular might work. I prefer characters with starting toughness less than 4e but a little greater than other editions, while keeping the totals fairly small. I'm assuming no major changes to typical magnitudes of damage or the basic hp system, of course. I figure 3 +1/level for brawny themes, and 2 + 1/2 levels for everyone else. With three themes that puts the total spread from 6 + 1.5/level to 9 + 3/level. I'm assuming Con score is added at first level. The brawniest dudes would start around 29 hp, and the typical 10 Con wizard at 16. By level 20 that would be 86 for the scrappers, and 44 for bookish sorts barring stat increases, etc. I do like adding a theme in the midgame, but that would inflate it even more. I suppose one could start with just a single non-class theme, but that feels just a little too conceptually limited to me. Hmmm.)
 


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