Sucking the Life Out of Skill Challenges

[Syntallah]

My players do this. Every. Single. Time. I am getting to the point where I cringe when I see a Skill Challenge in an adventure. It may sound cool, but I know they will screw it up. Every Challenge ends up being a massive grinding exercise in frustration.

Now, I do not announce "you are entering a Skill Challenge". I set the stage, prompt them to tell me what their characters are doing, and turn that into a skill roll. Problem is, they just don't get it. They all sit around the table staring blankly, or once they know a particular skill works, they will all roll that same skill over and over and over. There is little to no thought process in it.

How do you all run these things? Any tips will be most appreciated.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Sounds like they're just not interested in non-combat encounters. Which I imagine is frustrating for you.

 

[LostSoul]

How have you prepared skill challenges in the past?

What have you said - to set up the stage, and after checks have been made?

The more specific you can get the better.

 

[Syntallah]

I am currently running Lord of the White Field, and the Party just made it into Hampstead last night. Since fighting 6000 ghouls is bad, they have to make their way through the city as stealthy as possible.

I set the stage by explaining that they hear the ever present howl of ghouls, they see the occasional single or pack of same, they see tracks in the bone powder, etc. The table talk between players clearly indicated that they knew they had to be careful...

...and yet, it took them forever to make a Stealth check. They wanted to know the exact spacing of the houses, the layout of the streets, etc. I explained that, like D&D combat, Skill Challenges are an abstract; I do not have a map of the city.

I suppose it's my fault. I am the DM. I am not very good about narrating the success or failure of each check. Also, I suspect that TeqSun is correct, my players aren't thrilled with non-combat scenarios. After working 40 work weeks, and dealing with famliy/life/etc all week, they do not like to think on Friday nights.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

From your original comment about them staring blankly, you did make it sound like they just weren't interested. But now you say that they ask all kinds of questions, which makes it sound like they're interested and simply not confident in taking action.

When players ask a lot of questions before executing the obvious solution, sometimes it's because to them the solution isn't obvious. In your ghoul city example, it sounds like they might have been trying to gauge their chances of success. In other words, they may have simply wanted confirmation that sneaking thru the city was the "right" thing to do without outright asking "Are we asking for a TPK if we do this?"

Or maybe they're just yanking your chain after their bosses spent the week yanking theirs.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=17152]Syntallah[/MENTION]
There is tons of advice on running skill challenges, I've run several good ones, and I know Tequila has run some good ones lurking in an old campaign binder. Personally the best treatment of skill challenges I've seen is in STAR WARS Galaxy of Intrigue (with DMG2 being a close 2nd).

However, I'm not convinced your problem is that you don't run skill challenges well. After all, it sounds like you do a good job of framing the scene, keep the mechanics in the background, and are open to whatever the players throw at you.

My *hunch* is that the issue you describe is more one of play style difference between you and a majority of your players. Do you think there's merit to my hunch, or shall we inundate you with skill challenge tips now?

 

[Ryujin]

Generally speaking I run them by role playing them. I might state that it's a skill challenge, but then again I might not. I also don't generally announce what skills are applicable. Given the situation involved I wait for them to explain what they want to do, or to act it out. Sometimes I allow rituals to give automatic successes, if they're truly applicable to the situation.

One of the most memorable encounters that they've had was a skill challenge, in which they had to convince a disparate group of Eladrin nobles who were fractured in goals, to assist them in a war. Even the stump stupid and uncharismatic Fighter had fun with it, and even made significant contributions.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Does anyone know which book group skill checks/challenges are in? In the ghoul example given, it's doubtful that all PCs had good Stealth checks. The rest probably thought they'd fail, and might have been asking for maps in an effort to figure out what other kinds of skill checks they could use. (Or they may have felt they just could not contribute, lacking decent Stealth checks.)

 

[Rune]

Now, I do not announce "you are entering a Skill Challenge". I set the stage, prompt them to tell me what their characters are doing, and turn that into a skill roll. Problem is, they just don't get it. They all sit around the table staring blankly, or once they know a particular skill works, they will all roll that same skill over and over and over. There is little to no thought process in it.

Believe me, you're not alone. This probably sounds very familiar to a lot of DMs out there. In my opinion, the skill challenge structure encourages this.

...and yet, it took them forever to make a Stealth check. They wanted to know the exact spacing of the houses, the layout of the streets, etc. I explained that, like D&D combat, Skill Challenges are an abstract; I do not have a map of the city.

And yet, here it sounds like you have the exact opposite problem than the one I always had running (and participating in as a player) skill challenges.

In my experience, they were always too abstract and encouraged players not to become immersed in the situation, nor to think outside the box. They encourage players to look only at their skill lists for solutions, to spam the single best applicable skill in beating the challenge, and to do nothing but "aid other" if none of their skills match up.

Your players, sound as if they are immersed in the situation. In that case (actually, in either case), my advise to you is to give them something to work with. Skill challenges work best as a starting point that you don't adhere to.

If your players want details, it may be because they want to try something. I'll say it again, because it's worth repeating: give them something to work with! Even if you have to make something up!

 

[Syntallah]

[MENTION=17152]Syntallah[/MENTION]
<snip>
My *hunch* is that the issue you describe is more one of play style difference between you and a majority of your players. Do you think there's merit to my hunch, or shall we inundate you with skill challenge tips now?

[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION]
I am sure there is merit, but I do think it is partially my fault as well. For instance, the following are elements from the Ghoul Country Skill Challenge:

Streetwise (DC 23; maximum of 3 successes): The character is at home in the urban jungle, able to navigate quickly through the maze of streets and alleys

Perception (DC 16; maximum of 3 successes):
Keeping an ear to the ground and an eye out for lurking ghouls, the character steers the party around potential pitfalls and encounters.

I know I don’t do a good job of narrating the successes / failures of the checks, and I wonder if I am not setting the stage well enough.

After I set the stage, I ask “what do you do?”, and wait for the players to announce their actions. When one of my players states/asks something that seems to fall in with the listed skills, I call for a check. Problem is that my players usually just sit there not knowing what to do, especially if they think that they have no skills that apply (e.g. only one of the PCs is trained in stealth). So, should I read fluff entries of the various skills out loud first and let the players jump on that? Seems like if I do that, I might as well just list the skills that apply and let the rolls fall, thereby cheapening the whole thing. But if I don’t prod them, I get the blank-stare-grindfest. Also, how do I deal with the whole max check mechanic (i.e. Perception: max 3 successes). Definitely the old Kobiashi Maru…

Does anyone know which book group skill checks/challenges are in? In the ghoul example given, it's doubtful that all PCs had good Stealth checks. The rest probably thought they'd fail, and might have been asking for maps in an effort to figure out what other kinds of skill checks they could use. (Or they may have felt they just could not contribute, lacking decent Stealth checks.)

[MENTION=1165](Psi)SeveredHead[/MENTION]
And this is the other half of the problem. As soon as it became apparent that Stealth checks were important, the bulk of my players shut down because their stealthiness is minimal at best.