D&D (2024) It Is 2025 And Save Or Suck Spells Still Suck (the fun out of the game)

[I'm A Banana]

This I agree with, but I think there is room for change without it suddenly being "not D&D."

Save or suck spells as afflictions would be a food way to go. Your initial save result determines where you start on the track. Follow up failures make it worse ultimatelyending in REAL BAD, while follow up successes lessen the effect until CURED.

Like Flesh to Stone. One of the things I'm fond of in 5e's sabateur design is that they do use a diversity of approaches.

But, really, the trouble here is that you want your encounters to have a certain kind of narrative punch that D&D is OK with encounters NOT having. Fundamentally, that is a misalignment in D&D's design intent and your play intent. You can tweak D&D until it suits you, but the basic design of the thing is not intrinsically better if you remove save or suck spells. Might as well remove surprise or stealth while you're at it, and maybe get rid of PC death and crits and...

 

[Reynard]

Like Flesh to Stone. One of the things I'm fond of in 5e's sabateur design is that they do use a diversity of approaches.

But, really, the trouble here is that you want your encounters to have a certain kind of narrative punch that D&D is OK with encounters NOT having. Fundamentally, that is a misalignment in D&D's design intent and your play intent. You can tweak D&D until it suits you, but the basic design of the thing is not intrinsically better if you remove save or suck spells. Might as well remove surprise or stealth while you're at it, and maybe get rid of PC death and crits and...

I don't need to "tweak D&D" to any particular extent. I just need to (and have) tweaked solo monster battles.

This particular case is one of playing D&D 2024 as close to RAW as possible and practical, to expose its strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If only a version of D&D had been published that did all this!

Its still out there, just like the TSR editions.

 

[Seramus]

I find D&D far better at generating stories than generating fair and balanced encounters. Some of the most memorable moments in the game have been the result of great or terrible luck with the dice, and rarely does the party discuss how well balanced my encounters were 20 years later. There are some exceptions, like when a well balanced encounter leads to a tense situation that.... suddenly gets saved or lost by a great or terrible die roll. But that circles back to the die generating stories.

So, while it might have felt like an underwhelming experience from the perspective of a balanced encounter, it's very likely your players will remember it far longer and with a more amused light than the well balanced encounter you intended it to be.

On a personal level, I don't mind save or suck spells when they happen to my monsters. I've always got more monsters. But I do tend to feel uncomfortable about them when used against my players - specifically the ones that make my players miss their turns entirely. They came here to play the game, and not getting to play is the least fun way to play the game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I find D&D far better at generating stories than generating fair and balanced encounters. Some of the most memorable moments in the game have been the result of great or terrible luck with the dice, and rarely does the party discuss how well balanced my encounters were 20 years later. There are some exceptions, like when a well balanced encounter leads to a tense situation that.... suddenly gets saved or lost by a great or terrible die roll. But that circles back to the die generating stories.

So, while it might have felt like an underwhelming experience from the perspective of a balanced encounter, it's very likely your players will remember it far longer and with a more amused light than the well balanced encounter you intended it to be.

On a personal level, I don't mind save or suck spells when they happen to my monsters. I've always got more monsters. But I do tend to feel uncomfortable about them when used against my players - specifically the ones that make my players miss their turns entirely. They came here to play the game, and not getting to play is the least fun way to play the game.

That's funny. I'm not really looking for D&D to generate stories or fair and balanced encounters. Just a decent base for fantasy worldbuilding and cool stuff for players to explore through their PCs.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

The removal and progressive nerfing of save-or-suck spells certainly sucks the fun out of the game. As does the whining of overgrown children who can't cope with adversity.

Powerful game effects like petrification, paralysis, old school energy drain, mental domination drive stories, create drama, and weave a sense of threat or tension in ways that no amount of mindless hacking or dancing around in combat can ever replicate.