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<blockquote data-quote="eamon" data-source="post: 4134169" data-attributes="member: 51942">If a player is spending two feats to save 16k, that's fine and not in the least a problem.Persist is not a nova build.&nbsp; The difference between 1/day and 1/encounter is real, but not dramatic.&nbsp; For groups that fight only one serious(!) battle a day, there is no difference.I don't think it's a fun spell, and it's easily more powerful in the hands of NPC's such as super-high-BAB and super-high-strength dragons than PC's.&nbsp; But if it works for you, all the best!That's an odd ruling IMHO, but would help explain why you have less trouble with wraithstrike.Not if he's using the text I proposed, he can't, in which it can only be applied to spells on the cleric spell list.I'm not trying to allow abuse.&nbsp; DMM-Persist is not nearly as abusable as many other feats.&nbsp; If you're trying to nova, why bother spending a bunch of effort to make buff's last longer, when you could just get the cheaper yet more powerful DMM-Quicken?&nbsp; Sudden Persist is less abusable than DMM-Persist, but if you feel DMM-Persist is a problem, don't allow it.Which is why it's more useful to compare it to other actually attractive feats.&nbsp; If I'm going to go through the bother of balancing and allowing a custom feat for a player, it better not be useless, they'll just not choose it.&nbsp; In any case, Persist in all it's forms does not lend itself well to nova-abuse, and - though arguable - they don't tend to overshadow two-handed fighters or wildshaping druids or warblades or whatever else passes for a tank in the party.Honestly though, I'm much less worried about the overshadowing bit, since that's heavily dependant on the party you're playing in (and sudden persist is anyhow less of a risk than DMM-Persist here).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="eamon, post: 4134169, member: 51942"] If a player is spending two feats to save 16k, that's fine and not in the least a problem. Persist is not a nova build. The difference between 1/day and 1/encounter is real, but not dramatic. For groups that fight only one serious(!) battle a day, there is no difference. I don't think it's a fun spell, and it's easily more powerful in the hands of NPC's such as super-high-BAB and super-high-strength dragons than PC's. But if it works for you, all the best! That's an odd ruling IMHO, but would help explain why you have less trouble with wraithstrike. Not if he's using the text I proposed, he can't, in which it can only be applied to spells on the cleric spell list. I'm not trying to allow abuse. DMM-Persist is not nearly as abusable as many other feats. If you're trying to nova, why bother spending a bunch of effort to make buff's last longer, when you could just get the cheaper yet more powerful DMM-Quicken? Sudden Persist is less abusable than DMM-Persist, but if you feel DMM-Persist is a problem, don't allow it. Which is why it's more useful to compare it to other actually attractive feats. If I'm going to go through the bother of balancing and allowing a custom feat for a player, it better not be useless, they'll just not choose it. In any case, Persist in all it's forms does not lend itself well to nova-abuse, and - though arguable - they don't tend to overshadow two-handed fighters or wildshaping druids or warblades or whatever else passes for a tank in the party. Honestly though, I'm much less worried about the overshadowing bit, since that's heavily dependant on the party you're playing in (and sudden persist is anyhow less of a risk than DMM-Persist here). [/QUOTE]

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