Summoning, Calling, Killing, etc.

[Darren]

I'd like a rules reference or similar info about various methods of permanently disposing of outsiders in D&D 3.x.

For example... summoning spells vs calling spells:
Summoning basically gets you a "copy" of a creature, and the death of the summoned creature does not result in the actual death of the "real" creature back on its home plane, as per the spells description. Calling on the other hand brings the actual outsider, and if the outsider is slain, it's the real (permanent) thing.

However, I've encountered some stuff that suggests that outsiders can be permanently killed only on their own home planes, and other suggestions that the death of an outsider on any plane other than its home sends it back to its home and prevents it from entering the prime for some period of time, typically 100 years or so.

These last restrictions seem more like holdovers from previous editions or optional rules from some planar handbook. At any rate I can't locate a source fom them in my d20 stuff, but my library is hardly exhaustive though.

So...

Are there any rules or guidelines for dealing with outsiders other than those in the summoning/calling spells?

Any rules for changing the way summoning/calling spells work when cast on planes other than the prime?

Where did the idea of being able to destroy something only on its home plane originate?

Any good reference for the subtleties of interplanar mechanics and politics? Like how do the residents of the outer planes feel about all the summoning/calling that gets done on the prime, and why do creatures from the prime never seem to be called/summoned to the outer planes? Not so much a source of yet more spells/feats/PrCs/races for the planes, but how the planes themselves and magic that deals with them work and interract.

Thanks.

 

[Li Shenron]

Notes.

I'd like a rules reference or similar info about various methods of permanently disposing of outsiders in D&D 3.x.

The only reference in the PHB/SRD is probably under the summoning subschool of conjuration.

Summoning basically gets you a "copy" of a creature, and the death of the summoned creature does not result in the actual death of the "real" creature back on its home plane, as per the spells description. Calling on the other hand brings the actual outsider, and if the outsider is slain, it's the real (permanent) thing.

You don't get a "copy" of the creature with a summoning spell. When you summon a creature it is brought to the destination plane, and it is "sent back" if killed (actually already at 0hp IIRC), but as you say it's not really killed because it "reforms" within a day.

It's more in the nature of summoning spells than in the nature of outsiders however.

What you're thinking about it's probably the Astral Projection spell, but summoning spells are not exactly "the other way around", and there is no copy left in the original plane meanwhile.

However, I've encountered some stuff that suggests that outsiders can be permanently killed only on their own home planes, and other suggestions that the death of an outsider on any plane other than its home sends it back to its home and prevents it from entering the prime for some period of time, typically 100 years or so.

These last restrictions seem more like holdovers from previous editions or optional rules from some planar handbook. At any rate I can't locate a source fom them in my d20 stuff, but my library is hardly exhaustive though.

I don't have the new Planar Handbook, but at least it wasn't in Manual of the Planes. It's a sort of campaign-specific (or creature-specific) idea which some authors have used here and there probably, to make the encounters with some of those monsters more intriguing.

Are there any rules or guidelines for dealing with outsiders other than those in the summoning/calling spells?

I suggest DM's freedom. I know it's not what you're looking for, but IMO this must be a campaign issue and as such no universal rule must be followed blindly (although of course you may choose to use a rule suggested somewhere).

Any rules for changing the way summoning/calling spells work when cast on planes other than the prime?

Not sure, maybe the Planar Handbook has an extensive discussion about this?


edit: actually my comment about DM's freedom was about the issue of killing outsiders in their home plane or somewhere else, eventually having them banished for some time etc.

 

[Spatula]

These last restrictions seem more like holdovers from previous editions

Yeah, pretty much. Some of the more flavorful d20 planar supplements might make use of such restrictions, but they're not a part of the core 3E rules.

Where did the idea of being able to destroy something only on its home plane originate?

It was definitely around in 1E, I'm not sure from where exactly it originated, though.

Any good reference for the subtleties of interplanar mechanics and politics? Like how do the residents of the outer planes feel about all the summoning/calling that gets done on the prime, and why do creatures from the prime never seem to be called/summoned to the outer planes? Not so much a source of yet more spells/feats/PrCs/races for the planes, but how the planes themselves and magic that deals with them work and interract.

The 1E Manual of the Planes touches on those subjects more than the 3E version does, IIRC. Primes aren't generally summonable because they're generally not valid targets for summoning spells, which usually specify "outsiders or elementals."

 

[Herzog]

Where did the idea of being able to destroy something only on its home plane originate?

It was first used (to my knowledge) in the OD&D codex of the Immortals.
Immortals had different 'manifestation forms'. Killing an immortal on any plane but its home plane would banish him to his home plane for a prolonged period of time. Killing an immortal in its primary manifestation form on its homeplane would kill the immortal.
The rules also stated that no immortal with any brains at all would let it come to that, and teleport away from the ones trying to kill him (staying at its homeplane only if it was bound there at that moment) to prevent this.

With AD&D and the introduction of Deities in place of Immortals, I guess this rule kind of lingered on for the demi-gods and extraplanar beings.

Herzog

 

[Darren]

I appreciate the little history lesson. Looks like I'll just end up picking and choosing the flavor I want. Thanks for the replies.