Sundered Weapons are BROKEN!

[IceBear]

Even worse.

With the readied action if the archer stays within range of a partial charge you could destroy the bow. With a FRA you'd never be able to sunder a bow of an archer more than 5ft away.

I guess how you feel about sunder is whether or not you should be able to take the bow of the archer out. I've hardly ever tried to sunder anything nor has any of my players so I'm fine with it the way it is. If an archer PC in my group complained then *maybe* I might think of another rule.

IceBear

 

[MerakSpielman]

Good point. Because recognizing that the official Sunder rule is among a select few that stretches the bounds of what's plausible in a fantasy setting and adjusting it accordingly is pretty much equivalent with filling two binders full of house rules.

Why does every thread that poses a simple tweak have to invoke a But where does it end??? sentiment? I'm sure its only a matter of time before someone jumps in and says, "well if you ready a Sundered action you might as well just take dragons out the game too."

I think his point was that there are so many very reasonable fixes out there. Honestly, can you say that this Sunder ruling is the only house rule in your campaign? Is there nowhere else where you tweaked the rules to prevent something unbalanced or unrealistic from happening? Of course not. If something is unbalancing your game, you have every right to change it.
The truth of the matter is that you shouldn't alter any rule on the basis that is capable of being abused. If you tried to get rid of every rule/spell/feat combo that is stupid and unbalanced you would indeed end up with 2 binders (at least) of material that nobody in their right mind would ever want to read. At the very least, it would scare off new players who are already struggling with understanding the PH.

Conclusion: don't house-rule on principle. House rule only upon actual abuse of a situation in your game. If your players or their opponents are abusing Sunder, then alter it. Otherwise, leave it alone.

 

[IceBear]

Here here!

IceBear

 

[birdie_t_raven]

Matter of perspective

I think this whole debate and house rule proposal is fairly silly but that has a lot to do with my perspective on the issue and the game in general.

From the original post (edited):
1: "In actuality, without the defender's "help" its damn near impossible to Sunder..."

2: "...one Sunder attack is representative of many wild swings and strikes against an opponent's weapon..."

3: "...But we know that isn't how it works. And when a warrior approaches you, holding his shield in front of him with his sword behind him and you win initiative, how the heck are you going to Sunder his blade?..."

I disagree with all of this. With #1, if the defender is using his weapon at all there will be opportunities for the sunderer to break it. A combat round does not represent a single attack, its a combined representation of many strikes and parries. The attacks that are rolled are the opportunities that arise in the midst of these strikes and parries when one opponent can hurt the other. When the sunderer is focusing his attention to damaging the item instead of the person weilding it, he will have opportunities to do so during the round in much the same way that he has opportunities to damage the opponent.

#2, I don't think a sunder attempt is representative of many strikes against an opponent's weapon, but rather represents a moment during the flurry of blows between the combatants that he has the opportunity to make the attempt.

With #3, if the defender is busy protecting his weapon he is fighting defensively and gets a bonus to his AC (which I believe affects sundering attempts, does it not?, if not then it should) while suffering penalties elsewhere. If he's fighting normally, see my view regarding #1.

The argument presented and the rule proposed is based on the idea that when a character makes an attack roll, that is the only time he is striking at the opponent. This is simply not the case as it is stated quite plainly in the combat section of the PHB not to mention things like AoO's are entirely based on that abstraction and would really have no relevance to such a point of view. At least in my opinion.

With the question regarding called shots, it can easily be assumed that when a character is attacking, he is already trying to make called shots, and when he hits where he was attempting that is represented by the critical. Since items aren't on the list of places to try and put your blade to do the most damage, it takes a special announcement to do so, hence we have the sundering rules.

 

[IceBear]

Again.... Here here!!

IceBear

 

[drnuncheon]

But we know that isn't how it works. And when a warrior approaches you, holding his shield in front of him with his sword behind him and you win initiative, how the heck are you going to Sunder his blade? Or what if you get the drop on Arnold the Barbarian who wields his Bastard Sword two-fisted and raised just behind his head like he did in the movies? You might take his head off, but you ain't reaching that weapon.

Initiative and such are abstract. D&D combat is not an Irish stand-down, with both people taking turns smacking each other until one falls. In the cases you describe above, the sundering character is in all probability waiting until the person brings their sword into play before making the Sunder attempt. Presumably they aren't just standing around posing at you.

In effect, they are doing just what you suggest - waiting for the opponent to start to strike and then attacking the weapon - they just chose to abstract it in a way that doesn't cause needless complication.

Then there's the guy who just lets his sword give a little bit and absorb the Sunder's blow. No way you're slicing a sword in two if it moves with your attack.

This would be represented by the opposed attack roll to hit the weapon. A more skilled combatant is more likely to be able to protect his weapon from your attack. Seems fine to me.

Are you trying to change Sunder because you believe that it's abusive or too easy to use, or because your conception of how it works makes it seem "unrealistic"? If it's the former, then house rules are definitely something you should look into, but only after identifying exactly what is causing the problem. If it's the latter, then perhaps altering your conception of how Sunder works is all that is necessary.

J

 

[Darkness]

Moved to House Rules...