Sundering Hydra Heads

[Magus Coeruleus]

If you'd be so kind as to look at this text on Hydra combat:

COMBAT
Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.
A hydra can be killed either by severing all its heads or by slaying its body. To sever a head, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at a hydra’s heads from any position in which he could strike at the hydra itself, because the hydra’s head writhe and whip about in combat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a hydra’s head when the creature bites at him. Each of a hydra’s heads has hit points equal to the creature’s full normal hit point total, divided by its original number of heads. Losing a head deals damage to the body equal to half the head’s full normal hit points. A natural reflex seals the neck shut to prevent further blood loss. A hydra can no longer attack with a severed head but takes no other penalties.

Here's a question: Do you NEED to ready an action in order to attempt to sunder one of a hydra's heads? It doesn't specifically say that, but it does specify that you can ready an action to try and sunder when the creature bites at you. What would be the point of mentioning this option unless it were required for head chopping? You can generally ready an action to attack someone when they attack you, so why might it be mentioned here unless it's required for sundering heads? How could readying an action in this manner be useful if it is not actually necessary?

Okay, so let's say you think you need to ready an action to sunder a head. In that case, check this out:

Each time a head is severed, two new heads spring from the stump in 1d4 rounds. A hydra can never have more than twice its original number of heads at any one time, and any extra heads it gains beyond its original number wither and die within a day. To prevent a severed head from growing back into two heads, at least 5 points of fire or acid damage must be dealt to the stump (a touch attack to hit) before the new heads appear. A flaming weapon (or similar effect) deals its energy damage to the stump in the same blow in which a head is severed. Fire or acid damage from an area effect may burn multiple stumps in addition to dealing damage to the hydra’s body. A hydra does not die from losing its heads until all its heads have been cut off and the stumps seared by fire or acid.

How do you target a stump to apply fire or acid (not counting the area effects here)? Before, heads were whipping around and you could ready to chop one off when it came to attack you, but a stump doesn't attack you, and so when does it come within striking range?

Thanks,
MC

 

[frankthedm]

I would assume you would ready so the head is close enough to you to strike it [using its reach to bite you] when you are not threatening the body. You would HAVE to move in to sear the stump though and suffer those AoO's from other head.

 

[hong]

If you'd be so kind as to look at this text on Hydra combat:

Here's a question: Do you NEED to ready an action in order to attempt to sunder one of a hydra's heads? It doesn't specifically say that, but it does specify that you can ready an action to try and sunder when the creature bites at you. What would be the point of mentioning this option unless it were required for head chopping?

The point of mentioning it is so that if you chop the head off, it can't attack you. Of course, if you have lots of iterative attacks and Improved Sunder, you might as well sunder on your turn and chop off as many heads as you can, instead of just the one.

Although IMO it's still not that much better than just whacking the body until it falls down. Fast healing 20 sounds nice, but a lot of 7th level parties can probably dish out 80+ points in a round, so at most it'll buy the hydra a couple of extra rounds.

 

[Wippit Guud]

How do you target a stump to apply fire or acid (not counting the area effects here)? Before, heads were whipping around and you could ready to chop one off when it came to attack you, but a stump doesn't attack you, and so when does it come within striking range?

Sundering wth a flaming or acidic sword would solve this without needing to target the stump.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

frankthedm: Move in as in move into the hydra's space? That seems pretty involved. I'd think they'd mention something like that (then again, they aren't clear as it is).

hong: I'm not sure how readying helps keep you from getting bitten. If your turn comes before the hydra's, you might as well make an attempt right away. If it comes after, well, it's already made its atack because its turn to bite came before your chance to ready. Besides, unless you have Improved Sunder, if you ready a sunder, it will still get an attack of opportunity against you and thus not only be able to bite you before your attempt, but get two chomps in one round if you fail to sever the head (one from the AoO, one from the normal attack).

Wippit Guud: True. Of course you need 5 points of such damage, so there's a good chance that your standard flaming/acidic sword (which only does 1d6 energy damage) won't do the job in one hit. Then again, if you don't do enough damage to sever the head in one blow anyway, then by the time you manage to decapitate it probably will have accumulated 5+ energy damage.

 

[AuraSeer]

frankthedm: Move in as in move into the hydra's space?

I think he just means it in the general sense of "move in closer".

If you ready an action to sever the head attacking you, you don't need to be able to reach the body. The hydra probably has longer reach, and if it can attack you, you can intercept and sever its head. What frankthedm is saying is that you can't cauterize the wound in the same way, because the stump won't be reaching out to you; you need to step closer and reach the body with your own weapon (or torch or whatever).

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

I think he just means it in the general sense of "move in closer".

If you ready an action to sever the head attacking you, you don't need to be able to reach the body. The hydra probably has longer reach, and if it can attack you, you can intercept and sever its head. What frankthedm is saying is that you can't cauterize the wound in the same way, because the stump won't be reaching out to you; you need to step closer and reach the body with your own weapon (or torch or whatever).

Ok, this is starting to make more sense to me. I wasn't thinking about the Hydra's reach. So perhaps you can attack a head without readying an action, but may prefer to ready so that you don't have to move within 5' of the Hydra since it has a 10' reach and would get an AoO if you crossed that 10' line. You would have to be within 5', however, to sear a stump. Of course if you don't have Improved Sunder, it's still getting an AoO when you whack at the head. But you still might prefer not to get in its face to make retreating easier or something.

 

[Eye Tyrant]

So with the Cleave Feats can you take out multiple heads? Or do you still have to kill the monster as a whole? Also, why does everyone assume that chopping off a head severs the entire neck and head at the body and then turn around and say you can't "cauterize" the wound as well? Or am I missing something in the above thread?

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

So with the Cleave Feats can you take out multiple heads? Or do you still have to kill the monster as a whole? Also, why does everyone assume that chopping off a head severs the entire neck and head at the body and then turn around and say you can't "cauterize" the wound as well? Or am I missing something in the above thread?

Yes, you can take out multiple heads with cleave because cleave lets you make an extra melee attack, and sunder is a melee attack (I checked a few days ago because I wondered the same thing).

You raise a good point about assuming the head is cut off at the base neck. In fact, it makes more sense that it's NOT cut off there if you can ready an action to chop it off from 10' away. I envision the necks still whipping around, but since they don't try to bite you without a head attached, I assume you still need to move within reach of the body. If you didn't need to move in, then why would you need to wait and ready an action to chop off a head from a distance in the first place?

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

Q&A with Customer Service:

1. When an opponent readies an action to attempt to sunder a hydra's head when it bites at him (a tactic specifically mentioned), can he do this from 10' away (i.e. the Hydra's reach)?

-Only if he has 10-foot reach or reach weapon.

2. If NOT, what would be the purpose of this manuever (readying an action to sunder rather than just making the attempt as soon as you are able), and why is it mentioned here since you can, in general, ready an action to make an attack against any opponent when it attempts to strike you?

-There are any number of reasons you might do this. If you are not the only one attacking the hydra, and it splits its attacks, that is one less attack against you, assuming you are successful in your sunder attempt. If that was the only attack directed toward you... all the better for you. It all depends on the situation though.

I thought about this for a while, because it still wasn't apparent to me why this is a good idea. Here's my interpretation:

Imagine you and 4 allies and fighting a 5-headed hydra. Let's say the DM has decided one head will attack each PC. If you attacked on your turn to sever a head, them DM might roll randomly to see which PC's head-opponent you are attacking. If you happen to sunder a head, but it was not your own, you will be attacked anyway while the ally whose head-opponent was severed will not be attacked. Readying to sunder a head that bites at you assures that you will be attacking your head-opponent and not someone else's.

I don't think this is a very useful manuever, because unless you have Improved Sunder, the head you ready to attack will get an AoO against you anyway. Plus, if your team is working with their heads screwed on tight, then if you happen to sunder someone else's head-opponent, they will attack yours in return.

I can see a fighter who is adjacent to a wizard readying to attack one that bites at the wizard, to protect him, but first of all, they don't mention that scenario in the Hydra description (just the mostly useless tactic of readying to attack one that attacks you).

Secondly, as I tried to point out, this is really no different from what you can and might want to do in a situation with multiple attackers, i.e. readying to attack someone when they try to hit you or your ally.

I think that mentioning that you can ready an action to attempt to sunder a Hydra head leads to more confusion than clarity, because so far as I can see, the tactics involved are identical to other, non-hydra situations, and by calling special attention to this general option, it fuels speculation that there are differences in trying to use this tactic against a hydra (e.g. being able to attack from the hydra's reach).