Sunless Citadle - ran it/been in it? (spoilers)

[Broken Fang]

Ok...the party of 6 2nd level heros went into an unmodified Sunless Citadel. The party was composed of:
2 Fighter 1/Ranger 1
1 Paladin 2
1 Druid
1 Rogue 2
1 Rogue 1/Fighter 1
One of the Ftr/Rng and the Paladin were the front liners, everyone else was a primary bow user.

This is what happened...the module is set up for 4 1st levels, so we have 1.5 times as many PC's at twice the level.

Everything was going well till they meet with the Kobold queen. It was funny that with 2 rogues the paladin was still in the front and set off about every trap.

They did not mess with the water tanks so did not fight the Water Mephit...which was a good thing (DR 5/+1 and no magic items in the party).

When they got to the Kobolds (room 21 - lead by Meepo) one of the Ftr/Rngs got tired of diplomacy and shot the queen. This resulted in the crossbow carrying kobolds at the far end of the room running for reenforcements while the six body guards defended the queen. The queen then cast Hypnotism (3 PC's - 2 failed their saves) and the Paladin and the missle Ftr/Rng went down (3 and 4 rds). This allowed the body guards to move up and the queen to escape to the oncomming help. The other Ftr.Rng ran after her (with no light source) and ran into the oncoming help. As the rest of the party was trying to finish of the guards in the room he was getting magic missiled to death...he actually escaped with 1 HP left. As the sound of dying kobolds reached the queens ears she fleed (was seriously damaged and only had 2 1st lvl spells left)...she fled w/ 5 guards. The party left the young alone when they found them. Then spent some two days resting and recovering. I know this was suposed to be a diplomatic missioin but it went bad...the PC's got their butts handed to them!

Next they moved on toward the goblins (room 40) and busted in and started attacking the goblin (4) and hobgoblin (3) warriors. After round 1 one goblin was down and the alarm was being sounded. A f ew rounds later help arrived 8 more goblins, 3 hobgoblins, a twig blight, the goblin leader and his cleric. It ended up after many rounds of combat that some of the hobgoblins and goblins (about four total I recall) went around to flank and cut the party off. The Paladin was left in the room as teh Ftr/Rng melee guy backed out...both of these PC's ended up in single digit HP's. The rest of the PC's took between 0-10 HP's damage. The goblin chief (when low in HP's) ran with the cleric and a few goblins. The PC's didn't have anything left to chase and retreated to rest again. Again they pretty much got their butts handed to them.

So know they have a po'ed 3rd lvl kobold sorcerer and her guards after them (though I think they just split...its been about 5 days). The goblin chief, cleric, and some guards have retrated to the lower level. And the party still has the lower level to clear...which includes a Shadow (how can they fight that)?

Has anyone had this problem with the WotC modules? If a party of 4 did the same thing and was 1st level (like the module states) they would have gotten killed! Flipping through some of the others it seems like there is no chance to survive them. Has anyone found a good way to gauge CR and EL?

 

[RangerWickett]

In real life, you can't kill everything you see. If it weren't dangerous, then what's the challenge, the fun?

 

[Broken Fang]

I understand that RW, but the party keeps bitching about getting their collective asses handed to them. So here I am running a 1st level module for 4 PC's for a group that has 6 2nd level PC's. They have been in the module for 5 days now...most resting and one of the PC's is still down 5 points of Dex from poison. I looked at the EL's of the module and if all the mosters just stayed in their rooms to die, it still looks like it would take a party of 1st levels something like 15 days to clear the module. Then the last encounter...which is EL 6 (yes 5 above the party) is labled overpowering in the DMG and suggests the party RUN! The problem is this is the room that determines success or failure of the module?!? Did anyone else have this problem? Does it get any better or worse in the later modules of the set?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Well, frankly it all comes down to the way that the party played it. I ran it for a party of 4 first level characters (fighter, rogue, cleric, monk) and it went very well.

Of course, they bothered to negotiate with the kobolds, thus securing a base for hit and run attacks against the goblins, etc. etc. Their activites on the 1st level was enough for them to all reach 2nd level (and they were joined by a 1st level Druid). By the end of the adventure most were 3rd level, they had had a really tough time but managed to get through it in the end.

A party that attempts to attack and kill everything in the dungeon, going in headfirst, is bound to get whacked. IMO this makes for a good module. Sunless Citadel is good at giving PCs opportunities for doing other than charging in half-cocked. I think that the problem lies in the line "one of the ftr/rgrs got tired of doing diplomacy and shot the kobold queen". Serves 'em right then!

Cheers

 

[teitan]

HEH

Actually by the time the PCs reach the end they should have enough experience accumulated to be 3rd level. SOunds to me like your PC's need to strategize a bit more instead of rushing into battle and getting slaughtered. My 1st level group tore through the module, and they had no problems because they worked together in the encounters as opposed to attack, attack, attack. The troll was a pretty funny encounter in my group. Noner of them had played DnD before and the troll kept getting up and attacking again.

Jason

 

[Davelozzi]

I'm currently running a group (4 1st level PCs) through the Citadel and things are going pretty well. My players negotiated with the kobolds and began to strike against the goblins. They had one really hairy battle when the goblins sounded the alarm and the party found themselves surrounded in the trapped hallway east of Calcryx's room. But some smart tactics and a few lucky crits got them out of there. I was a tough battle but very memorable.

Now they're back in kobold land resting up and getting ready to finish of the goblins. Fortunately, I have some nasty surprises up my sleeve for them.

I'd have to say that I agree with Plane Sailing. It's all in how they play it. Any adventure will be a lot harder if your players plan on rushing in and fighting everything they see without some forethought and planning.

 

[SoulsFury]

I ran it with 2 2nd lvl PCs and it wasn't to hard for them to make it through. Though they didn't kill the kobolds and actually ended up taking the goblin leader hostage.

SoulsFury

 

[Neowolf]

No offense Broken Fang, but judging from your account of the session, I'd say the party was the problem, not the module. The Sunless Citadel is written assuming that the PCs will at least think twice before pulling boneheaded moves (attacking the Kobold Queen for example). I myself have run that module with a party of 4 first level characters, and the only times they had major difficulty in combat were the white dragon, the dragon priest/ogre/whatever it was (sorry, it's been a while and my memory's fuzzy), and the final confrontation with the Druid.

It sounds to me like the party's a bit over-aggressive. To make it through Sunless Citadel, it's really best if the PCs are willing to make friendly relations with at least one of the nonhuman factions (usually the Kobolds). It's a bit too late for this advice now I guess, but you might want to say something to your players out of game about not thinking with their swords.

Just my two coppers.

 

[The Kender]

I'll try sending my player and an NPC in(Only having 1 player makes things hard) at 2nd level. I'll post a new topic with the outcome.

 

[Broken Fang]

Thanks for all the replies. I remember back when we went through it the first time...this time I was a player and it was a different group. We parleyed with the kobolds and did the same thing...hit and run vs the goblins. I think one problem is the party in these aspects:
1. no tactical leader!
2. they all really like bows...sometime to the point of not having a front liner at all
3. they all try to rely on low armoe/high dex for AC...then they get ambushed
4. rarely does someone make any kind of arcane caster, and when they do its usually only for a few levels
5. healing is always looked upon from the cleric/druid...I think the last suggestion was for everyone to pick up a level of cleric

After all is said and down I really think #1 is the biggest problem. Everyone hangs back and shoots while the front liner holds the door. So 2-3 attacks are being made against the Paladin and then all the archers have to shoot through the Paladin into combat to hit his opponents.

We should finish next week with the lower level. All they really have up top is to find the white dragon, they ran from the dragon priest (locked it back up) and I don't think they are going to try to go after it again. The lower level has the addition of the goblin leader, his cleric, and about goblins when they initiated a tactical withdraw.

The current deffenses for the druid now have a goblin at the door where they go down the hole (41), one at the hole, and more goblins at the bottom (42). Once the ones on top see the parties light they haul and form up to prepare to throw/shoot as the PC's are climbing down (this should be fun). I have a feeling I am going to have to play the monsters as idiots to continue.