D&D 5E Super Deadly 5E?

[DND_Reborn]

Really? Because the rule says

The target must succeed on a DC 14 Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken.​

The critical damage is part of the damage. This just came up in my last game, and yes it almost took out my wife's rogue with one hit. Guess it's lucky she doesn't see it the way you do.

LOL I think you have things crossed. My interpretation (as I see every DM run it) is better for the PCs, not worse. And you mention critical damage because----???

Here: (current HP 50, max hp 60)
You get hit for 21 damage. Your HP goes down. (Ex. 50 - 21 = 29)
You roll a DC 14 CON save. Succeed: you're fine. Fail: Your MAX HP goes down. (Ex. Max 60 - 21 = 39)

What @S'mon was describing as a possible ruling is:
You get hit.
You roll a DC 14 CON save. Succeed: you're fine. Fail: Your MAX HP goes down. (Ex. Max 60 - 21 = 39)
You take 21 damage was well. (current HP reduced because max HP reduced: HP 39 - 21 = 18).

So, he is suggesting it could be ruled as a double-dip (in essence) in one hit.

 

[Oofta]

LOL I think you have things crossed. My interpretation (as I see every DM run it) is better for the PCs, not worse. And you mention critical damage because----???

Here: (current HP 50, max hp 60)
You get hit for 21 damage. Your HP goes down. (Ex. 50 - 21 = 29)
You roll a DC 14 CON save. Succeed: you're fine. Fail: Your MAX HP goes down. (Ex. Max 60 - 21 = 39)

What @S'mon was describing as a possible ruling is:
You get hit.
You roll a DC 14 CON save. Succeed: you're fine. Fail: Your MAX HP goes down. (Ex. Max 60 - 21 = 39)
You take 21 damage was well. (current HP reduced because max HP reduced: HP 39 - 21 = 18).

So, he is suggesting it could be ruled as a double-dip (in essence) in one hit.

I do know some DMs just double damage on a crit.

The reason I'm asking is simple - this just happened in a recent game.

I don't remember specific numbers, but normally the wraith does 21 points of damage. The wraith scored a critical hit, I rolled for extra damage and it totaled 40 points of damage with a single hit. She failed her save and had just taken 40 points of damage.

According to the rules, if she had 40 HP or less she would have become a wraith based on my understanding.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I do know some DMs just double damage on a crit.

The reason I'm asking is simple - this just happened in a recent game.

I don't remember specific numbers, but normally the wraith does 21 points of damage. The wraith scored a critical hit, I rolled for extra damage and it totaled 40 points of damage with a single hit. She failed her save and had just taken 40 points of damage.

According to the rules, if she had 40 HP or less she would have become a wraith based on my understanding.

You're confusing things.

I am not talking about a critical hit at all. If a DM wants to double damage, which is close enough to double dice only, sure--no problem.

What you are saying is mostly correct, however you rule critical hits, if the total damage was 40, your HP max would also be reduced 40 if you fail the save. If her max HP were 40 or less, she would be dead (not a wraith). The wraith could use its next action to make her into a specter (not a wraith), if no one restored her before then of course.

But, that isn't what @S'mon was suggesting and I was discussing. The "interpretation" I am talking about doesn't concern critical hits, it is about the order of which damage and possible lose of max HP occurs.

 

[S'mon]

As for the idea of ruling double-impact from the hit, I don't know of anyone who would rule it that way since the max hp is a separate number from hp and requires a failed save to be affected after the damage is dealt. If any DM tried ruling it that way, I would find another group to play with.

If you track damage done rather than hp remaining, then that's how it works by default - take 22 damage to damage tally, then reduce max hp by 22, doubles the effect.

You would find another group to play with because the GM's life draining undead are nasty? Clearly a Frodo or Samwise.

 

[DND_Reborn]

If you track damage done rather than hp remaining, then that's how it works by default - take 22 damage, then reduce max hp by 22, doubles the effect.

Not really AFAIK. Reducing max hp doesn't reduce current HP unless the reduction would result in your current HP being greater than your maximum. Off hand, I don't know of any attacks that only target max HP, so this is really a non-factor. There might be some situations this could happen in, but none come to mind immediately. If you know of any, let me know and we can discuss it.

Just for reference from the Wraith:
Life Drain. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 21 (4d8 + 3) necrotic damage. The target must succeed on a DC 14 Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken. This reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0.

The damage has to be taken first, since otherwise the failed CON save has no value (no damage taken) to reduce the maximum hp by.

Now, suppose a PC has 15 hp out of a max 24. Gets hit by a Wraith for 22. This is where it gets interesting and more up for discussion IMO. Your hp go to 0, with 7 overflow. But, you fail your CON save and your max hp drops to 2! So, the 7 overflow is higher than your current maximum HP... are you dead because the overflow exceeds your max hp or just at 0/2 and making death saves? I've seen both arguments and on this I go more with the 0/2 idea, but I can understand how a DM might rule with the dead due to the overflow exceeding max HP.

 

[Oofta]

You're confusing things.

I am not talking about a critical hit at all. If a DM wants to double damage, which is close enough to double dice only, sure--no problem.

What you are saying is mostly correct, however you rule critical hits, if the total damage was 40, your HP max would also be reduced 40 if you fail the save. If her max HP were 40 or less, she would be dead (not a wraith). The wraith could use its next action to make her into a specter (not a wraith), if no one restored her before then of course.

But, that isn't what @S'mon was suggesting and I was discussing. The "interpretation" I am talking about doesn't concern critical hits, it is about the order of which damage and possible lose of max HP occurs.

Yeah, I should have double checked the monster, multi-tasking while waiting for stuff.

A wraith taking someone to 0 kills them, any wraith can turn a dead person into a spectre. So if you have multiple wraiths it could happen in one turn, but in many cases you'll have a chance to bring them back.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yeah, I should have double checked the monster, multi-tasking while waiting for stuff.

A wraith taking someone to 0 kills them, any wraith can turn a dead person into a spectre. So if you have multiple wraiths it could happen in one turn, but in many cases you'll have a chance to bring them back.

Cool.

So you see how the "interpretation" was more about applying the reduction to max HP reducing current HP, even if the current HP has already been reduced? (Not my position, FWIW).

 

[Oofta]

I will say that after being reduced to 2 HP it would have been quite easy to kill the rogue in my game. Any hit from any creature would likely have taken her out because of massive damage.

 

[tetrasodium]

I will say that after being reduced to 2 HP it would have been quite easy to kill the rogue in my game. Any hit from any creature would likely have taken her out because of massive damage.

That may be how it works at your heaily houseruled table, but that's not how death by massive damage works in 5e man

a character with 2 hp who is hit for damage between 3 & maxhp -1. Using the rules of 5e, being at 2hp is not especially dangerous unless it is likely you can get hit three or more times before someone can cast healing word, cure wounds, use a potion, use a healing kit, cast spare the dying, use lay on hands, so on & so forth.

This is what happens if they take damage between 3 & max-1 hp using the actual rules of 5e instead of what seems to be your houserule.

 

[anthr]

I will say that after being reduced to 2 HP it would have been quite easy to kill the rogue in my game. Any hit from any creature would likely have taken her out because of massive damage.

That may be how it works at your heaily houseruled table, but that's not how death by massive damage works in 5e man
[...]
a character with 2 hp who is hit for damage between 3 & maxhp -1. Using the rules of 5e, being at 2hp is not especially dangerous unless it is likely you can get hit three or more times before someone can cast healing word, cure wounds, use a potion, use a healing kit, cast spare the dying, use lay on hands, so on & so forth.

This is what happens if they take damage between 3 & max-1 hp using the actual rules of 5e instead of what seems to be your houserule.

Could you please use the right teminology?
Instant death has nothing to do with massive damage.
Massive damage is an optional rule in DMG. p273.