Superior Cover from Allies?

[Flipguarder]

Something I really don't like is that the rules for cover don't account for height as I can find. If you drop a sword and decide its an obstacle (about as plausible as deciding an ally is an obstacle imo) then it grants you cover.

 

[N0Man]

Something I really don't like is that the rules for cover don't account for height as I can find. If you drop a sword and decide its an obstacle (about as plausible as deciding an ally is an obstacle imo) then it grants you cover.

The rules don't address 3D combat. However, 4E is not a computer game that is easily fooled by such a silly exploit. It is run by a DM, and no reasonable DM is going to say that a sword on the ground is going to provide cover to anyone, with the possible exception of if the sword is dropped between 2 combatants that are 3 inches tall.

Though 3D isn't explicitly covered, a DM can very reasonably adapt the 2D rules to a 3rd Dimension. *Usually* (and I emphasize "usually" in an attempt to ward off some atypical crazy exception someone might want to argue), again, *usually* ranged attacks from a medium creature are going to originate from within a 5' cube that the player *roughly* occupies (even if their head does poke out of it).

So, imagine that cube, pick a corner of that cube, and draw imaginary lines to the corners of the target's cube. If you have line of effect, then you have cover if up to half (1 to 4) of the corners are blocked and superior cover if more than half (5 to 8). Both 2D and 3D follow the basic rule that if half or less of the lines are obstructed then you have cover, and if more than half are obstructed then you have superior cover.

If you can visualize the 3D space, then I think the rule works fairly well. If this is too complex to visualize (and some people are more spatially minded than others) then just use the best guess and judgment of the DM (which is the default "rule" anyway).

Either of those 2 methods would completely rule out something as silly as trying to hide behind a discarded sword on the floor...

 

[Flipguarder]

What I meant is that because it's all due to DM it means.... its all up to the DM.

In my games Allies won't provide superior cover. My own reasoning is that a character never takes up an entire 5 x 5 space, so unless the character is impossibly wide in girth, you are going to be able to see them.

But again, that's just my opinion, there is no rules and therefore whatever the DM says is what goes.

 

[N0Man]

In my games Allies won't provide superior cover. My own reasoning is that a character never takes up an entire 5 x 5 space, so unless the character is impossibly wide in girth, you are going to be able to see them.

They don't have to take up the 5x5 space to provide superior cover. In fact, I drew out the examples Ladislaus gave on graph paper to help visualize it, and even using small circles (that took up only a portion of the square), superior cover was granted by the allies. In both examples, about the best the enemy could do is to get 1 single line from his corner to one of the corners of the target which draws a line that goes right between 2 of the allies (and the line actually brushed up right on the side of one of the allies).

 

[DracoSuave]

One reason that allies might not be superior cover for you is because superior cover doesn't want to step out of the way when it gets large amounts of destructive force fired at it. Allies, on the other hand, may wish not to die today.

 

[N0Man]

One reason that allies might not be superior cover for you is because superior cover doesn't want to step out of the way when it gets large amounts of destructive force fired at it. Allies, on the other hand, may wish not to die today.

The rules say explicitly that allies provide cover, so I'm confused. Are you disputing cover, or Superior Cover?

The standard "Cover" and "Superior Cover" are different degrees of cover, and it appears that with the examples given, Superior Cover is possible.

 

[DracoSuave]

The rules say explicitly that allies provide cover, so I'm confused. Are you disputing cover, or Superior Cover?

The standard "Cover" and "Superior Cover" are different degrees of cover, and it appears that with the examples given, Superior Cover is possible.

Subjunctive case, introducing a hypothesis that does not portend to have a truth value. Offering a possibility, in this case, for a DM to decide--as DMs do have that option to decide on a case by case basis--determined through examination of the use of the words 'might' or 'may' or 'could'. Also, regarding the case of superior cover, as shown by the use of the words 'superior cover'. Not an intent to make a ruling as per exact RAW, but an offering of how a DM might rule such an instance as per Rule 0.

From a personal standpoint, I'm considering a house rule that your allies provide concealment, not cover, as they don't take the shot for you, but they screen the shot. Not a big deal mathematicly, but it gives a difference in how combat works out with obscuring effects.

 

[Lauberfen]

that would make sense actually, as allies already don't affect blasts and bursts, which is the same as concealment.