Surprise round question

[Hriston]

[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], it seems that what you meant to say is that I'm not playing by your wrongity wrong wrong wrong definition of unconscious, in which case I agree whole heartedly.

 

[Maxperson]

Whichever way you want to approach it, anything you apply to sleep also applies to unconscious from damage. If initiative wakes up a sleeping character, it also wakes up a character who is unconscious from being at 0 hit points. The game only has one type of unconscious.

 

[Hriston]

You realize that if you equate sleep unconscious with knocked out unconscious, which you do since you are arguing that they are both unconscious and even went to the devs for confirmation, and if you allow loud noises to wake sleepers, you are arguing that a loud noise wakes up PCs who have been knocked out due to damage. Who needs healing anymore. I'd just carry a cow bell around for when companions are reduced to 0.

The same condition can be imposed under different circumstances. This doesn't make the circumstances identical. You become unconscious when you fall asleep. You also become unconscious when you drop to 0 hit points but don't die outright. That doesn't mean that sleep drops you to 0 hit points, or that dropping to 0 hit points makes you fall into a normal sleep. A condition can also end for different reasons related to the circumstances that caused the condition ending. The unconsciousness imposed by dropping to 0 hit points ends when you regain any hit points. The unconsciousness imposed by sleep ends when you wake up.

 

[Maxperson]

The same condition can be imposed under different circumstances. This doesn't make the circumstances identical.

No, but it does make the result identical. Unconscious.

You become unconscious when you fall asleep. You also become unconscious when you drop to 0 hit points but don't die outright. That doesn't mean that sleep drops you to 0 hit points, or that dropping to 0 hit points makes you fall into a normal sleep.

Yep. The attack creates an extra way to wake you up, and that's by healing. That's all it does by RAW. It doesn't remove a loud noise from waking you up. It doesn't remove another attack from waking you up, though damage at 0 hit points has other rules attached. Initiative isn't tied to either unconscious condition. That's your house rule.

A condition can also end for different reasons related to the circumstances that caused the condition ending. The unconsciousness imposed by dropping to 0 hit points ends when you regain any hit points. The unconsciousness imposed by sleep ends when you wake up.

Right. The only added way to wake up someone who is unconscious comes from the combat rules, and that's healing to 1+ hit points. So sleep has X ways to wake someone up, and 0 hit points has X+1 ways to wake someone up. At least as written in the book.

Oddly enough, I just noticed in looking this stuff up that if you are out of hit dice and don't have magic healing available, you can't ever wake up naturally from 0 hit points. You regain hit dice via a long rest, as well as your hit points, but the long rest rules specify that you must have 1 hit point to gain any benefits from a long rest.

 

[Harzel]

Oddly enough, I just noticed in looking this stuff up that if you are out of hit dice and don't have magic healing available, you can't ever wake up naturally from 0 hit points. You regain hit dice via a long rest, as well as your hit points, but the long rest rules specify that you must have 1 hit point to gain any benefits from a long rest.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say here, but

If damage reduces you to 0 hit points and fails to kill you, you fall unconscious... . This unconsciousness ends if you regain any hit points.

<snip>

If you roll a 20 on the d20 [on a death saving throw], you regain 1 hit point.

<snip>

A stable creature that is not healed regains 1 hit point after 1d4 hours.

 

[Maxperson]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say here, but

Thanks. I knew I had to be missing something there.

 

[Arial Black]

A sleeping creature is unaware of its surroundings, but it doesn't follow that its senses have ceased to function or that there's anything physiologically different about its senses when it's asleep. What "unaware of its surroundings" means in this case is that it isn't consciously aware of what its senses are nevertheless picking up. Sleeping creatures are not blind, deaf, et cetera. They are unconscious. Conversely, hearing (or sensing in some other way) is not awareness if it lacks consciousness.



There's a lot that happens between the assassin standing 5 feet away from his or her victim, not attacking, and the dagger blade actually stabbing through the victim's flesh. I would place the trigger at the beginning of this transitional period, which I would consider part of the attack, so the trigger happens before the attack has been completed.



No. In my games, a declaration by a player at the table to attack another creature, like any other action-declaration, introduces into the fiction that the player's character is actually beginning to undertake said attack. The resolution of the attack (or other action) is what must wait for the player's "turn". So we have an attack-declaration from the player, which is what the player has said that his or her character is trying to do in the fiction. Because it's an attack, the action must be resolved in combat rounds, so we then begin combat, at which point the attack and any other simultaneous actions or counter-actions can be resolved.



It's the commencement (but not the resolution) of the action that combat rounds were entered to resolve. Most commonly, it's that one side begins to attack the other. When I DM, if it's the monsters attacking the PCs, I describe the monsters beginning their attack in some way that makes it obvious to the players (and their characters) that battle is in the process of erupting. On the other hand, if (one of) the players has/have declared an action that needs to be resolved in combat, then that action is considered to be in progress, and even if the player(s) later change(s) his/her/their mind(s) about what to do on his/her/their actual first turn(s) in combat, the original declared action is considered to have been started by the PC(s) to the extent that any actions taken by the other side are in reaction to it. Then I call for initiative. That's the start of combat.



They don't have to be conscious/aware of things to sense them and be awoken by them. Hearing/seeing, etc. is not awareness if it lacks consciousness.

Hriston, I agree with all that. It all makes sense. It is how I run things and how I would want things to be run....

...with one, crucial exception: even though you rightly acknowledge that your sleeping senses are still functioning, and the things those senses pick up may awaken you, you are having sleepers wake up without an in-game sensory stimulous, or are inventing a spurious stimulous that automatically awakes sleepers no matter what the assassin does!

'Starting combat' or 'rolling initiative' is not an in-game thing that can be sensed, it's purely meta-game.

'Being stabbed' is an in-game thing and would wake a sleeper.

But you are having the sleepers awake before that stabbing has hit/damaged! You are having the assassin automatically fail to draw his blade quietly, or automatically wake the sleeper, and there is no in-game sensory justification for doing so.

The act of initiating an attack is not accompanied by alarm bells and flashing lights, guaranteed to wake every sleeper within 30 feet!

You're adjudicating stuff fine except for this. All you need to do to get events to be credible is to roll opposed Stealth/Perception checks to find out if the assassin did something to awaken the sleeper! Neither auto-success nor auto-fail is appropriate here.

 

[nswanson27]

Hriston, I agree with all that. It all makes sense. It is how I run things and how I would want things to be run....

...with one, crucial exception: even though you rightly acknowledge that your sleeping senses are still functioning, and the things those senses pick up may awaken you, you are having sleepers wake up without an in-game sensory stimulous, or are inventing a spurious stimulous that automatically awakes sleepers no matter what the assassin does!

'Starting combat' or 'rolling initiative' is not an in-game thing that can be sensed, it's purely meta-game.

'Being stabbed' is an in-game thing and would wake a sleeper.

But you are having the sleepers awake before that stabbing has hit/damaged! You are having the assassin automatically fail to draw his blade quietly, or automatically wake the sleeper, and there is no in-game sensory justification for doing so.

The act of initiating an attack is not accompanied by alarm bells and flashing lights, guaranteed to wake every sleeper within 30 feet!

You're adjudicating stuff fine except for this. All you need to do to get events to be credible is to roll opposed Stealth/Perception checks to find out if the assassin did something to awaken the sleeper! Neither auto-success nor auto-fail is appropriate here.

I have to appreciate the attempt to try to fit initiative to "somehow" realistically count for why it can disrupt assassinate, because it is in the rules. However, in the end it's a silly way to do surprise, and no explanation based on realism for why it should be this way comes with any reasonable justification, and I hope WotC takes it to heart for the next edition.
With that said, for all those who play assassinate RAW - just say you're doing RAW. That's a good enough (and perfectly valid) explanation. You're not doing any favors for yourselves by holding onto your position that initiative and assassinate together "makes sense". No offense, but you just look silly.

 

[Hriston]

No, but it does make the result identical. Unconscious.

But the condition isn't the only result.

The results of falling asleep:
1. You have the Unconscious condition, which ends when you awaken (DM's discretion).
2. You may possibly fulfill your sleep requirement (e.g. 8 hours/day).

The results of falling unconscious after dropping to 0 hit points:
1. You have the Unconscious condition, which ends only when you regain hit points.
2. You make a death saving throw at the start of your turn unless you are stable.
3. Any damage you take counts as a failed death saving throw.
4. Any damage you take from a critical hit counts as two failed death saving throws.
5. Any damage you take that is greater than or equal to your maximum hit points kills you instantly.

Identical results? Not really.

Yep. The attack creates an extra way to wake you up, and that's by healing. That's all it does by RAW. It doesn't remove a loud noise from waking you up. It doesn't remove another attack from waking you up, though damage at 0 hit points has other rules attached.

You think that because sleep imposes the Unconscious condition that anything that ends sleep also ends the Unconscious condition, even in situations where the condition was imposed by something other than sleep. This is not sound reasoning.

Unconsciousness imposed by sleep ends when the sleep ends. Sleep is ended by things that end sleep.

Unconsciousness imposed by dropping to 0 hit points without dying ends when you're no longer at 0 hit points. You're no longer at 0 hit points when you regain some hit points.

Initiative isn't tied to either unconscious condition. That's your house rule.

No. My house rule is that sleeping creatures are wakened by the commotion caused whenever hostile action (rather than hostile words, thoughts, or intent) is taken. Fictionally, this commotion takes place before initiative and is the event to which the initiative check measures reaction. Before initiative is ever rolled, the creature is wide awake due to some commotion or other. This is my house rule.

The chain of events is as follows: At the table, a player (or the DM) declares hostile action for his or her character or monster. >> In the fiction, the character or monster begins to perform said hostile action, causing a commotion considered equivalent to a loud noise. Anyone within audible range is now alert, and if they were sleeping, they are now awake. If the character or monster beginning to perform the hostile action is hidden, anyone unaware of its presence is now surprised. This fictional event is the Start of Combat. >> Still in the fiction, alerted creatures react to the Start of Combat, beginning to perform any actions they take in response. >> At the table, the DM calls for a DEX check, called Initiative, to determine whose competing actions are resolved first.

Right. The only added way to wake up someone who is unconscious comes from the combat rules, and that's healing to 1+ hit points. So sleep has X ways to wake someone up, and 0 hit points has X+1 ways to wake someone up. At least as written in the book.

As written in the rulebooks, there is exactly one way to awaken from the unconsciousness caused by dropping to 0 hit points without death, and that's by regaining any hit points, even one. The unconsciousness caused by falling asleep, on the other hand, can be ended by anything the DM has determined. It would be a misreading of the rules for the DM to decide that anything that awakens you from sleep also awakens you from the unconsciousness caused by dropping to 0 hit points without death, although I could see allowing a character to momentarily regain consciousness to utter some last words, for example.

Oddly enough, I just noticed in looking this stuff up that if you are out of hit dice and don't have magic healing available, you can't ever wake up naturally from 0 hit points. You regain hit dice via a long rest, as well as your hit points, but the long rest rules specify that you must have 1 hit point to gain any benefits from a long rest.

This has been addressed up thread. The creature with 0 hit points must be stabilized. Then, after 1d4 hours of remaining stable, the creature regains 1 hit point.

 

[Arial Black]

I feel yet again that I must point out how much I agree with you, since it seems all my posts are about disagreeing with you. It's only one thing that bothers me (us), but I think it is a big thing.

No. My house rule is that sleeping creatures are wakened by the commotion caused whenever hostile action (rather than hostile words, thoughts, or intent) is taken. Fictionally, this commotion takes place before initiative and is the event to which the initiative check measures reaction. Before initiative is ever rolled, the creature is wide awake due to some commotion or other. This is my house rule.

This! This house rule is the problem.

I'm not averse to house rules per se, but this one just doesn't make sense.

The specific part that doesn't make sense is the part I bolded. You are ruling that this commotion is a certainty, and assuming that this commotion happens at this exact moment, when we are talking about an assassin skilled in not making a commotion, and highly motivated to avoid waking anyone up!

It just doesn't make sense (as well as being an unfair ruling in game terms) that a commotion automatically, magically and certainly takes place and that the sleepers automatically, magically and certainly wake up no matter how alert or oblivious they may be, no matter how stealthy or clumsy the assassin.

What would make sense is to find out whether or not the assassin did in fact make a commotion, or at least whether or not the target woke up, taking into account the Stealth skills of the assassin, the Perception skills of the sleeper, and luck. Was the sleeper going to wake up to empty his bladder anyway? Does a drunk smash a bottle outside and waken the sleeper just at the wrong moment?

Roll that opposed check and find out!