Surprise round question

[Urbannen]

Here is a question I have from last night's session.

Our party had infiltrated a fort of ogres and goblins. My character had silently opened a door to see three goblin guards in a room. I shut the door and indicated to the party that there were goblins in the room. I then opened the door, took a five foot step and attacked a goblin.

The DM ruled that my action alone counted as the surprise round. Everyone then rolled initiative. Not surprisingly one of the goblins got away to sound the alarm. Later the DM claimed that we should have planned our attack so that all of us got to go on the surprise round, thus surrounding the goblins.

What was the correct way to handle the situation? The rules say that if one group of opponents is unaware of the other, than the aware group can do all sorts of things out of initiative until they finally choose to attack. When the aware group attacks, they get one standard action on the first round of the attack.
Does initiative have to be rolled on that round? Did my character have to wait for everyone to get on board and roll initiative first, even though she was leading the attack?

 

[trentonjoe]

I play (and I by no way mean to say this is the right way) that a group that has "suprise" can take Standard actions before iniative.

In your example, I would have allowed one person to open the door and THEN the rest of the group to partial charge through and attack before round 1.

 

[MichaelH]

As long as the goblins did not see you opening or closing the door or hear you or your party preparing your ambush (the DM rolls the appropriate Spot and Listen checks), they are unaware of your party and surprised. Each of you should get a standard action before initiative is determined, not just your character.

 

[irdeggman]

I think your DM was correct. Since your PC attacked prior to the rest of the group taking an action then you did indeed use the surprise action. If, as you DM suggested you instead had delayed your action so that they all occurred at the same time then all could have gotten a surprise action.

Note that those who are benefitting from surprise are supposed to roll initiative before they take their surprise action and that is the number they use for the combat.

Opening the door, taking a 5' step and attacking are more actions than are normally allowed for a surprise round since a surprise round gives only a single standard action.

I based my opinion on the way you described the actions - it seemed that you were saying that your PC did all of his actions and then the rest of the party was going to do something.

 

[reiella]

Hmm, mostly, you should have just put off attacking the goblin till the rest of party was in position for the party to make use of the Surprise Round.

Also, remind the rest of your party to actually ask more often if they can get a surprise round action in. I know I personally forget about the surprise round alot .

 

[MichaelH]

I think your DM was correct. Since your PC attacked prior to the rest of the group taking an action then you did indeed use the surprise action. If, as you DM suggested you instead had delayed your action so that they all occurred at the same time then all could have gotten a surprise action.

This is not correct. Since the PC and his entire party were aware of the goblins, they have surprise. Each member of the party is entitled to a standard action. Also, you can never use a Delay action to go at the same time as another character. If you delay, you go immediately after someone. Further, in this scenario, initiative rolls are not made yet (see below).

Note that those who are benefitting from surprise are supposed to roll initiative before they take their surprise action and that is the number they use for the combat.

This is only the case when some on both sides are aware of one another. When only one side is aware of the other, each creature on the aware side may take a standard action and then initiative is rolled. Check the DMG, pages 22-23, for this information and examples of play.

Opening the door, taking a 5' step and attacking are more actions than are normally allowed for a surprise round since a surprise round gives only a single standard action.

IMO, in this situation, opening the door is done outside of combat. The door is opened and the goblins are surprised. The PC and his party now each get a standard action (or a move action, but not both) and then initiative is rolled. Again this is all spelled out in the DMG, pages 22-23. Note the example on page 23, column one, first full paragraph, in which Jozan prepares two spells, then opens the door, and then he gets his standard action (unless the bad guys heard him and became aware of him).

 

[D+1]

What was the correct way to handle the situation? The rules say that if one group of opponents is unaware of the other, than the aware group can do all sorts of things out of initiative until they finally choose to attack. When the aware group attacks, they get one standard action on the first round of the attack.

All true.

Does initiative have to be rolled on that round?

See 3.5 PH, p133. I'll repeat it here:
First, DM determines if surprise exists - if everybody is aware of their opponents. If noone is aware of their opponents or everyone is aware, there is no surprise round.
If surprise exists ALL characters not surprised may take a standard action - this requires rolling initiative to see which of the non-surprised characters acts first.
Now that the surprise round is over everyone who hasn't already rolled for initiative does so and combat proceeds normally.

Did my character have to wait for everyone to get on board and roll initiative first, even though she was leading the attack?

Yes. Since you only get a single standard action you basically end up with a choice of attack action or move action, you can't both run into the room AND attack. You have to all be in position first if you all want to attack. If while you are getting into position somebody trips the alarm (such as attacking before anyone else is in position) then you'll screw up the opportunity to make the most of the surprise advantage.

 

[irdeggman]

Or opening the door, which IMO should grant those inside a Spot check to sense something has changed.

 

[FireLance]

Technically, your DM was correct, athough he probably could have handled it better.

Opening a door is a move action, so if your character opens a door in a surprise round, that is all that he can do. In fact, by allowing your character to take a 5-foot step and attack after that, he had actually given your character an extra action before calling for initiative.

Unfortunately, he seems to assuming that the other characters were either just as unaware as the goblins of the events that were going on, or had specifically decided to wait until your character had acted before doing anything. Perhaps he should have asked the rest of the party what they were doing while your character was opening the door.