Surprise when the bad guys are faking it

[Camarath]

The skeletons aren't "disguising" themselves as anything. They're just pretending to be dead.

You can't disguise your self as a dead body? How could Sense Motive possible reveal whether the they are undead or just mundane bodies. Sense Motive is a social skill which relies on body language, speech habits and mannerisms non of which are in play here. Spot should be the skill use to determine whether they are undead or not. That leave us with two chocies the cant either be using Hide or Disguise. Since they are in plain sight I don't think hide makes much sense. They are trying to portray themselves as something they are not, merely base on circumstance and appearance. That fits Disguise better IMO than any other skill.

If it's not a Bluff check, it's a Perform check. However, since skeletons are clearly incapable of "Performing" in the traditional sense, Bluff works well enough.

Look at the mechanics of Perform do you see any provision for deceptive use? I don't. Skeletons can use Perform it is possible for them to dance and play some instruments. Bluff requires interaction which is not happening here.

 

[Camarath]

If I decided (as I probably would) that undead skeletons tend to look more cohesive than dry bones that are just lying there, I'd assign a static DC for noticing the difference between cohesive skeletons and natural skeletons.

This also a good way to deal with the situation.

 

[nikolai]

I think the problem is that this differs from the standard - kick the door down combat model in the DMG, where you just check for surprise, roll initiative etc.

I'm not bothered about whether undead look different from real bodies, for the moment. Assume they're zombies and identical to corpses. My solution is:

1) PCs enter room [encounter starts].
2) Roll spot/listen for undead, keep going once a round until PCs are detected or combat starts [PCs have no chance to detect undead].
3) Once PCs have been detected the undead have surprise, they keep this until they attack (if there are quite a few of them then coordinating the attack will be tough).
4) Surprise round taken at the time of the undead's choosing, remember they're prone.
5) Roll initiative.

Now suppose one of the PCs has detect undead going. When they detect the zombies, the secret is revealed and that PC won't be surprised. So there's a situation where they're both aware of the other - but because the zombies are waiting and don't know the PC knows they're waiting no-one's attacking. Then, there's no surprise and the first group to choose to attack automatically gets a 20 on their initiative roll.

Now if it's an orc pretending to be dead, it's different. But I'll leave that for later...

nikolai.

 

[d12]

I think the problem is that this differs from the standard - kick the door down combat model in the DMG, where you just check for surprise, roll initiative etc.

I'm not bothered about whether undead look different from real bodies, for the moment. Assume they're zombies and identical to corpses. My solution is:

1) PCs enter room [encounter starts].
2) Roll spot/listen for undead, keep going once a round until PCs are detected or combat starts [PCs have no chance to detect undead].
3) Once PCs have been detected the undead have surprise, they keep this until they attack (if there are quite a few of them then coordinating the attack will be tough).
4) Surprise round taken at the time of the undead's choosing, remember they're prone.
5) Roll initiative.

Now suppose one of the PCs has detect undead going. When they detect the zombies, the secret is revealed and that PC won't be surprised. So there's a situation where they're both aware of the other - but because the zombies are waiting and don't know the PC knows they're waiting no-one's attacking. Then, there's no surprise and the first group to choose to attack automatically gets a 20 on their initiative roll.

Now if it's an orc pretending to be dead, it's different. But I'll leave that for later...

nikolai.

I think you got this mostly right here - excpet for the part about the automatic 20 on initative. It will be hard for more than 1 or 2 skeletons to attack with surprise, most will spend the surprise round standing up. Those that do attack will attack prone. Okay.

This is good because the same adventure has another situation involving a room full of statues - half of which are animated objects. Sheesh!

 

[splitinfinitude]

I'd favor either spot, or maybe a knowledge check if somebody has a relevant knowledge skill (like a knowledge check to tell what kind of animal something is). Sense motive doesn't seem right.

One problem - this is a surprise round, partial actions only. Standing up from prone is a move-equivelant action, so that's their surprise round action unless they attack while prone, or you allow a "partial charge" for this situation. It's corny, but you could have the "dead skeletons shackled to the wall" (fake shackles, of course) deal from pirates of the caribbean.

Actually, that could be kind of cool - have a cutlass "holding" one skeleton up, some arrows in another. Nice flavor text.

Don't forget to make the doors slam shut, and the room slowly fill with water as the skeletons attack.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

IMNSHO, you should "almost never" allow surprise to occur without some kind of skill check. Due to circumstance modifiers, the DC to avoid surprise may be absurdly high.

Consider an extreme example: I wander into a room with an invisble Rogue who heard me coming.

I still get a skill check: Spot DC 20 to notice an invisible creature nearby AND a Spot vs. Hide. Assuming the Rogue rolls lousy on his Hide roll, knowing I am being hunted by some kind of invisible opponent may not but sufficient to save my behind ... but that is my tough luck. I still get an action to try my best.

 

[d12]

I think you're right R-Cohort. I figure these mostly decayed skeletons in armor don't look any different from actual dead bodies in armor so I need some sort of check for the PCs to make. If D&D had a "sixth sense" check this would be the situation for that, but there isn't one. I suppose I'll do a static spot check DC 30. If the PC in question makes it I'll state "something about these bodies isn't right." Then the skeletons won't get surprise.

 

[nikolai]

IMNSHO, you should "almost never" allow surprise to occur without some kind of skill check. Due to circumstance modifiers, the DC to avoid surprise may be absurdly high.

I agree. I just can't see a way around it for the skeleton's example, so I think this is where the "almost" comes in. I guess the balancing factor for the surprise round is that:

a) They have to put themselves at a disadvantage to get it (i.e. prone).
b) If there's more than one, they have to workout some signal/ready action system to make a decent attack together.
c) The PCs have to place themself at risk by moving to the wrong place (i.e. too near the bodies)
d) It'll (probably) only work the first time...

The most effective thing I could see them doing with it is initiating a grapple.

I'm more uncomfortable with the animated statue example, the monster's going to get a free attack for nothing.

Consider an extreme example: I wander into a room with an invisble Rogue who heard me coming.

I still get a skill check: Spot DC 20 to notice an invisible creature nearby AND a Spot vs. Hide. Assuming the Rogue rolls lousy on his Hide roll, knowing I am being hunted by some kind of invisible opponent may not but sufficient to save my behind ... but that is my tough luck. I still get an action to try my best.

As I said I agree - in this case the check's is so hard you've got to make a spot vs. DC 20 and vs. Hide. But I just can't get around the fact there's nothing to indicate there's a threat until the attack is made. Perhaps if you wanted to insist on a skill check a heal or knowledge [religion] against DC 20 would notice the signs of unnatural magic on the bones (though would this mean you knew they were undead?).

I remember there was a "skeleton coming to life" thing in the Sunless Citadel module. Does anyone have it to hand & can tell us how it was dealt with there?

nikolai.

 

[Destil]

Personally I'd use the modifier for spotting for invisible unmoving undead (+20 to spot DC) for the general spot check.

If they hack at 'em, well they either react or get hacked without fighting back. Depends on what they were ordered to do. Suprise round for the PCs, mabye.

 

[Darkness]

Hm. Maybe handle it like a mimic; the situation is quite similar.