Survivor Appendix N Authors- LEIBER WINS!

Sacrosanct

Legend
Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21 If you haven't actually read Leiber, you totally should. Through an adult lens. Then the parallels and inspiration from Leiber into D&D will be striking.
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 7
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J.R.R. 17 He contributed a ton. But not nearly as much as people think. We had a thread about this last year or so
Weinbaum, Stanley 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 7
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J.R.R. 18
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21
 
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Heh.

Me: and you have the original alignment system.(Law vs. Chaos)

You: The Law vs Chaos axis on the alignment wheel is entirely down to Moorcock.(Original alignment system)

So you have the original alignment system and a sword that is kinda sorta, but not really, like Stormbringer. The pantheon was removed after being in the game briefly and I never saw it actually used, but I imagine it was used by some. That's not a whole lot of impact compared to the list I gave of Tolkien's.



It had nothing to do with dislike. I just never got any of their books when I was younger. You are correct that I won't know which ideas from D&D that were taken from them, but given the breadth of Tolkien's influence, I doubt it was much more than what you gave to Howard above. If feel confident that Tolkien contributed the most.



I didn't. I credited Tolkien with being the reason why the Ranger class in 1e, which included the Strider title, could use them. The Numenoreans/Dunedain(Rangers of the North) used the Palantir.
I'm afraid I have to accuse you of intellectual dishonesty.

Law and Chaos where a major feature of the game in earlier editions (5e downplays alignment, but you seem to be trying to pretend it was never significant, which is simply not true), and it was directly and openly based on Moorcock. The Great Wheel, and all the planer stuff stems directly from that. Without Moorcock and with only Tolkien D&D would only have one world.

And to say a sword (actually several swords) is "kinda sorta like Stormbringer" is equivalent to saying that "D&D orcs are kinda sorta like Tolkien's Orcs". Without Moorcock D&D would have no sentient weapons.

Anyone who tried to downplay Tolkien's influence on D&D is being intellectually dishonest, but anyone who downplays Moorcock's influence is equally dishonest. Both where incredibly important in shaping the game.


Whether or not you like either of them, whether or not you think either are good writers are open to debate. But to suggest either was not a significant influence on D&D is either ignorant or dishonest.
 
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happyhermit

Adventurer
Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 7
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21

I really wanted to stay out of this but I owe Tolkien a lot. I still remember getting a hand-me down copy of "The Hobbit" from my mom, who was given it by her brother, and I remember reading it to my little sister (and she does too even though she was very young). Managed to get both mom and sister (and other sis) into a game later on and am pretty sure that book helped out, it pretty much told the story of an adventure; Form the party, define roles, start the campaign, random encounter, explore, get a magic item, kill the big bad monster and get the treasure. So just for that I have to give Tolkien props.

As for Margaret St. Clair, probably the less I say the better. I wish there were more women on the list so I didn't have to feel bad about voting one of the very few down, but I can't stand to see this author higher than Tolkien and others.
 

Tyler Do'Urden

Soap Maker
Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 7
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I'm afraid I have to accuse you of intellectual dishonesty.

You could accuse me of being the Tooth Fairy and be as accurate as that accusation there.

Law and Chaos where a major feature of the game in earlier editions (5e downplays alignment, but you seem to be trying to pretend it was never significant, which is simply not true), and it was directly and openly based on Moorcock. The Great Wheel, and all the planer stuff stems directly from that. Without Moorcock and with only Tolkien D&D would only have one world.

If by "you seem to be trying to pretend it was never significant," you actually mean that I am flat out saying it was significant, you would be correct!!

I specify the original alignment system, because that was the Law vs. Chaos alignment system where alignment was much like Moorcock described in his books, though Zelazny also had a strong Law vs. Chaos influence. With the advent of 1e and the 9 axis system, law and chaos didn't mean nearly what it did in the original game. In fact, it bore almost no resemblance at all to Moorcock's system at all, other than the names Lawful and Chaotic.

And to say a sword (actually several swords) is "kinda sorta like Stormbringer" is equivalent to saying that "D&D orcs are kinda sorta like Tolkien's Orcs". Without Moorcock D&D would have no sentient weapons.

The Nine Lives stealer had very little in common with Stormbringer who could take hundreds of souls and convert them to much more than the Nine Lives Stealer. It was only kinda, sorta like Stormbringer, and now you're being intellectually dishonest by arguing otherwise.

And perhaps you aren't aware that Tolkien had a sentient weapon as well. Gurthang was intelligent and spoke. "And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer,"yea I will drink thy blood, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly""

So you can scratch Moorcock off as being the reason for them to exist in D&D. He has to share that distinction with.............Tolkien!!

Anyone who tried to downplay Tolkien's influence on D&D is being intellectually dishonest, but anyone who downplays Moorcock's influence is equally dishonest. Both where incredibly important in shaping the game.

I'm not downplaying either one. I'm saying, and saying it factually, as I have shown with my posts on what Tolkien contributed, that Tolkien contributed far more.

Whether or not you like either of them, whether or not you think either are good writers are open to debate. But to suggest either was not a significant influence on D&D is either ignorant or dishonest.

You can cut out all the Strawmen now. I think both of them were significant, or I wouldn't have named Moorcock on my small list of authors to upvote.
 

Prakriti

Hi, I'm a Mindflayer, but don't let that worry you
Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 5
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21
 

Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 3
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 3
Norton, Andre 2-2=0 Gone but not forgotten
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 22+1=23
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21
 

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