Survivor Ninth Level Spells- METEOR SWARM WINS!

[Son of the Serpent]

Unless they are playing a Lore Master Wizard, in which case they are not to be trusted.

Holy crap. Sorry. Someone necroliked thus thread and confused me. Didnt mean to commit high crimes of necromancy.

 

[Phazonfish]

Yeah. Having played one and watched a few other play them i can tell you that with most dms play style the one mile range never tends to get useful very often. It should, but it rarely does.

Expertise in all knowledges, swapping energy types and ability saves though, now thats where its at.

In the unlikely event (in 5e) that your campaign reaches 14th level a nifty ability (the subclass capstone. There are several stronger ones arguably that other subclasses of wizard have) comes into play and it SOUNDS amazing but its not that great for a high level full casters capstone. There are other ways to explain this ability but the best way to look at it is this. Once per day you can use one wish with no chance of spell failure or twisted effects, but unlike a normal wish that copies any spell up to level 8, this one copies any spell including 9th level spells and it can copy any spell from any list in the game. Sounds amazing right? Nah. It doesnt actually do that much good compared to some other capstones. Changing a save on a spell to a different kind of save onece per long rest is much better. Changing energy types all day long adds up to more benefit than the capstone too. It makes for a great ability to help avoid tpks though.

I'll practice necromancy if it means an excuse to talk about wizards.

Yeah, the main problem with the Lore Master isn't that any one feature is too broken to ever see play, it's how many good features they get. Most wizard subclasses get like 1 good feature, 1-2 okay features, and 1-2 ribbons. The Diviner breaks this mold and is easily the strongest wizard in the PHB with the possible exception of Illusionist depending on what kind of DM you have; Portent alone would have been enough to carry the subclass since the main class is so strong, yet they give it actually useful toys at every other subclass milestone.

If you had a wizard that got the save changing part of Spell Secrets but nothing else except ribbons, they would be very powerful yet not gamebreaking (about on par with the Diviner). If you had a wizard that got Prodigious Memory and Master of Magic but nothing else, they would be pretty good, but not gamebreaking. If you had a wizard with most of the remaining Lore Master features but nothing else, they would be very powerful yet not gamebreaking. And WotC said, "What if we just give them all three of these characters' abilities in one?" for some reason.

Also, you are correct that the other features are better, but Master of Magic has great synergy with Glyph of Warding and Contingency so I think it is still pretty impressive.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

I'll practice necromancy if it means an excuse to talk about wizards.

Yeah, the main problem with the Lore Master isn't that any one feature is too broken to ever see play, it's how many good features they get. Most wizard subclasses get like 1 good feature, 1-2 okay features, and 1-2 ribbons. The Diviner breaks this mold and is easily the strongest wizard in the PHB with the possible exception of Illusionist depending on what kind of DM you have; Portent alone would have been enough to carry the subclass since the main class is so strong, yet they give it actually useful toys at every other subclass milestone.

If you had a wizard that got the save changing part of Spell Secrets but nothing else except ribbons, they would be very powerful yet not gamebreaking (about on par with the Diviner). If you had a wizard that got Prodigious Memory and Master of Magic but nothing else, they would be pretty good, but not gamebreaking. If you had a wizard with most of the remaining Lore Master features but nothing else, they would be very powerful yet not gamebreaking. And WotC said, "What if we just give them all three of these characters' abilities in one?" for some reason.

Also, you are correct that the other features are better, but Master of Magic has great synergy with Glyph of Warding and Contingency so I think it is still pretty impressive.

I would put loremaster in the 80th percentile among wizards.

There are a few types of wizards that will absolutely best it. I consider it above average but not crazioy above average and certainly not game breaking.

Diviner is very breakable though. So is necro done the right way imo.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Son of the Serpent]

also master of magic isnt that great

UNLESS you are magically an extremely low diversity spell book author

 

[Phazonfish]

I would put loremaster in the 80th percentile among wizards.

There are a few types of wizards that will absolutely best it. I consider it above average but not crazioy above average and certainly not game breaking.

Diviner is very breakable though. So is necro done the right way imo.

Oh, bold claims! While I definitely respectfully disagree, I very much appreciate you putting this notion forth, as if the community's opinion softens I may have hope to play one yet! With all the people out there whose first reaction to anything new and powerful is "Broken. Banned at my table." I find your attitude refreshing.

I agree that Necromancers can be one of the best wizard subclasses, I even considered mentioning them in my original post, but managing an army of undead can be a bit finicky so I ranked it a bit lower (of course that flavor of micromanagement is the wizard's hat, so I probably shouldn't have).

You'll have to pry my d4 hd from my MU's cold, dead hand.

The abolishing of the d4 HD was a mistake. How am I supposed to be squishy when my class encourages me to put 14-16 points in Con?

also master of magic isnt that great

UNLESS you are magically an extremely low diversity spell book author

C'mon, you're telling me being able to use Contingency Revivify isn't an impactful option?

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Oh, bold claims! While I definitely respectfully disagree, I very much appreciate you putting this notion forth, as if the community's opinion softens I may have hope to play one yet! With all the people out there whose first reaction to anything new and powerful is "Broken. Banned at my table." I find your attitude refreshing.

I agree that Necromancers can be one of the best wizard subclasses, I even considered mentioning them in my original post, but managing an army of undead can be a bit finicky so I ranked it a bit lower (of course that flavor of micromanagement is the wizard's hat, so I probably shouldn't have).


The abolishing of the d4 HD was a mistake. How am I supposed to be squishy when my class encourages me to put 14-16 points in Con?


C'mon, you're telling me being able to use Contingency Revivify isn't an impactful option?

Yeah. I draw a nice, crisp, mile (range heh) wide line between stuff like "signifficantly above average", "not built through incompetance" (no game mastery required to be simply competant), and things like "broken", and "powergaming" of which it is neither of the latter two across the mile wide line.

From 3.x, red wizard of thay/chosen of mystra with a dabbling in other things. Now that is broken.

Loremaster? Its basically a wizard who isnt a tool.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Oh, bold claims! While I definitely respectfully disagree, I very much appreciate you putting this notion forth, as if the community's opinion softens I may have hope to play one yet! With all the people out there whose first reaction to anything new and powerful is "Broken. Banned at my table." I find your attitude refreshing.

On a side note, another thing, i strongly disuade using online communities for much other than comradery, discussion, and collaberation. Its great for those things.

But as far as approval goes these people are presumeably not your roleplay circle irl. You dont need this community's approval. Its your game. Or your dm's game. Ultimately you guys decide. Not caring about public opinion in decisions relating to my hobby has served me well. Just saying.

If your table wont let you use lore master perhaps try finding one that will and play games at both tables.

Something dont let your memes be dreams something what would gygax do something...

 

[Phazonfish]

On a side note, another thing, i strongly disuade using online communities for much other than comradery, discussion, and collaberation. Its great for those things.

But as far as approval goes these people are presumeably not your roleplay circle irl. You dont need this community's approval. Its your game. Or your dm's game. Ultimately you guys decide. Not caring about public opinion in decisions relating to my hobby has served me well. Just saying.

If your table wont let you use lore master perhaps try finding one that will and play games at both tables.

Something dont let your memes be dreams something what would gygax do something...

Oh absolutely. I'm not the type of person to take internet people's opinions as something to point to at as evidence at my table or anything like that, I just mean to say that if the one thing that 98% of the community remembers about the Lore Master is that it's busted that sentiment may eventually find its way into people at my table's head anyway. Especially since last time I was a player my DM was reluctant to even give me free reign of the PHB.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Oh absolutely. I'm not the type of person to take internet people's opinions as something to point to at as evidence at my table or anything like that, I just mean to say that if the one thing that 98% of the community remembers about the Lore Master is that it's busted that sentiment may eventually find its way into people at my table's head anyway. Especially since last time I was a player my DM was reluctant to even give me free reign of the PHB.

Oy...

Thus why u prefer to play with people who are allergic to group think.