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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 4565489" data-attributes="member: 12731">For example, the Warlock power Crown of Madness (p134) says:Sustain Minor: The target attacks someone etc (save ends)What does this language mean? First off, I realize &quot;sustain&quot; works differently in 4th Ed than I'm used to, because it isn't like the power's main effect (the bit under &quot;Hit:&quot; or &quot;Effect:&quot;) is sustained by you. Instead, what is sustained is (or can be) completely separate from the direct results from hitting or missing with the attack. 1) Right?So, hit or miss with Crown of Madness, you inflict some damage, but the main point of the power is that next turn, you're enabled to spend a minor action to start something special: what is written under the Sustain heading - in this case, the &quot;the monster attacks his allies&quot; effect. This 2) isn't at all sustaining the damage caused by hitting...3) and importantly doesn't depend on you actually hitting with your power. A miss still allows you to &quot;sustain&quot; (i.e start off the madness effect) in your next round?Okay, so far I'm expecting &quot;yep&quot;, &quot;correct&quot;, and &quot;right&quot; as answers. Now back to the difficult bit - the &quot;Save ends&quot; language.Your next turn, you spend a minor action and force the enemy to attack his own. But this isn't ongoing, or that keyword would have been included. Still it says &quot;save ends&quot;. But sustained powers normally work until the end of the encounter, as long as you keep feeding it minor actions, of course.Could it be that if the monster saves, you can still make it attack its own by sustaining the power? And only when the warlock turns his attention elsewhere will the target be left with an effect that lingers until he saves?On the other hand, a power like Curse of the Black Frost (p135) explicitly says &quot;If the target saves, you cannot sustain this power.&quot;Could it be that this is what the enemy saves against. That by saving, the power is ended and you can't sustain it anymore? In effect, that the sustainable part of the power has a &quot;save ends&quot; duration as well as &quot;sustained&quot; (i.e. it ends when you no longer feeds it).Any help is appreciated. The rulebook doesn't seem to address this issue.Z</blockquote>

[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 4565489, member: 12731"] For example, the Warlock power Crown of Madness (p134) says: Sustain Minor: The target attacks someone etc (save ends) What does this language mean? First off, I realize "sustain" works differently in 4th Ed than I'm used to, because it isn't like the power's main effect (the bit under "Hit:" or "Effect:") is sustained by you. Instead, what is sustained is (or can be) completely separate from the direct results from hitting or missing with the attack. 1) Right? So, hit or miss with Crown of Madness, you inflict some damage, but the main point of the power is that next turn, you're enabled to spend a minor action to start something special: what is written under the Sustain heading - in this case, the "the monster attacks his allies" effect. This 2) isn't at all sustaining the damage caused by hitting... 3) and importantly doesn't depend on you actually hitting with your power. A miss still allows you to "sustain" (i.e start off the madness effect) in your next round? Okay, so far I'm expecting "yep", "correct", and "right" as answers. Now back to the difficult bit - the "Save ends" language. Your next turn, you spend a minor action and force the enemy to attack his own. But this isn't ongoing, or that keyword would have been included. Still it says "save ends". But sustained powers normally work until the end of the encounter, as long as you keep feeding it minor actions, of course. Could it be that if the monster saves, you can still make it attack its own by sustaining the power? And only when the warlock turns his attention elsewhere will the target be left with an effect that lingers until he saves? On the other hand, a power like Curse of the Black Frost (p135) explicitly says "If the target saves, you cannot sustain this power." Could it be that this is what the enemy saves against. That by saving, the power is ended and you can't sustain it anymore? In effect, that the sustainable part of the power has a "save ends" duration as well as "sustained" (i.e. it ends when you no longer feeds it). Any help is appreciated. The rulebook doesn't seem to address this issue. Z [/QUOTE]

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