Sustained powers that "Save Ends"?

CapnZapp

Legend
For example, the Warlock power Crown of Madness (p134) says:

Sustain Minor: The target attacks someone etc (save ends)

What does this language mean? First off, I realize "sustain" works differently in 4th Ed than I'm used to, because it isn't like the power's main effect (the bit under "Hit:" or "Effect:") is sustained by you. Instead, what is sustained is (or can be) completely separate from the direct results from hitting or missing with the attack. 1) Right?

So, hit or miss with Crown of Madness, you inflict some damage, but the main point of the power is that next turn, you're enabled to spend a minor action to start something special: what is written under the Sustain heading - in this case, the "the monster attacks his allies" effect. This
2) isn't at all sustaining the damage caused by hitting...
3) and importantly doesn't depend on you actually hitting with your power. A miss still allows you to "sustain" (i.e start off the madness effect) in your next round?

Okay, so far I'm expecting "yep", "correct", and "right" as answers. Now back to the difficult bit - the "Save ends" language.

Your next turn, you spend a minor action and force the enemy to attack his own. But this isn't ongoing, or that keyword would have been included. Still it says "save ends". But sustained powers normally work until the end of the encounter, as long as you keep feeding it minor actions, of course.
Could it be that if the monster saves, you can still make it attack its own by sustaining the power? And only when the warlock turns his attention elsewhere will the target be left with an effect that lingers until he saves?

On the other hand, a power like Curse of the Black Frost (p135) explicitly says "If the target saves, you cannot sustain this power."

Could it be that this is what the enemy saves against. That by saving, the power is ended and you can't sustain it anymore? In effect, that the sustainable part of the power has a "save ends" duration as well as "sustained" (i.e. it ends when you no longer feeds it).

Any help is appreciated. The rulebook doesn't seem to address this issue.

Z
 

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Expecting "yep", "correct", and "right" as answers?
Nope.

The condition is inflicted as soon as you hit.

Saving throws and sustains are both duration trackers, so ...

If a successful save is made, the effect ends.
If no sustain action is taken, the effect ends.

That means ... they get to make a saving throw before you get to attempt a sustain.
 

The condition is inflicted as soon as you hit.

Save Ends is not part of the Hit text. It's part of the Sustain text... which doesn't come into play until the first time you sustain the power.

If you hit, you deal 2d6 + Cha damage. If you miss, you deal half damage.

Next round, you can spend a minor action to Sustain, and the target makes a melee attack against an ally; on his turn, he gets a save which, if successful, will prevent you sustaining the power any more.

Until you sustain the power the first time, though, 'save ends' hasn't come into effect, so no saving throw is rolled before the first sustain.

-Hyp.
 

Save Ends is not part of the Hit text. It's part of the Sustain text... which doesn't come into play until the first time you sustain the power.

Ah, but read that way, why would a made save stop you from sustaining again?

The (save ends) is not part of the Sustain text, it's attached to the entire sustain line.
 

Yes, exactly.

I can accept that this is how it works (the save ends the sustainability of the power), but this is not clearly explained by the PHB.

If one of you can don your lawyer's hat and explain to me - through the PHB rules text - how a power like this is intended to work, I'd be very grateful.

Alternatively, we could also agree the text would have been much more clear if the ""If the target saves, you cannot sustain this power" language would have been added, either to each power, or to the general explanation of the Sustain duration, yes?
 

Ah, but read that way, why would a made save stop you from sustaining again?

Because if the save is made, the effect ends, and then there is no effect to sustain next round.

Sustaining an effect starts the turn after you create the effect. If you don't take the required action to sustain the effect, the effect ends. In the case of Crown of Madness, they get s save on their turn; if they make the save, the effect ends.

If the effect has ended, there's nothing to sustain.

But before "the turn after you create the effect", sustaining hasn't started, and so "save ends" has not come into play.

-Hyp.
 

If a successful save is made, the effect ends.
If no sustain action is taken, the effect ends

Seems pretty straightforward to me, too... Saves can only be made at the end of the effected creatures turn, unless a power triggers an extra save for them. That's pretty much without exception unless your a hobgoblin. I don't really see any other possible way to read this power.

You can sustain it, unless the victim has already saved against the effect. They probably included the (save ends) wordage just in case some players didn't find that to be self-explanatory and tried to say the power was still in effect despite the save.
 

If the effect has ended, there's nothing to sustain.

But before "the turn after you create the effect", sustaining hasn't started, and so "save ends" has not come into play.

But there is no ongoing effect except your ability to sustain.
The target makes a swing, and stops swinging ... until next time you make it take a swing. It's not an ongoing thing.
So the effect isn't what he's saving against ... it's

Sustain minor (save ends)
 

So the effect isn't what he's saving against ... it's

Sustain minor (save ends)

When you sustain a power, you prevent the power from ending. If you don't sustain the power in any round after you use it, the power ends at the end of your turn. If the power has ended, it can't be sustained.

But in the round that you use it, it doesn't end at the end of your turn.

So in round 1, you use the power; at the end of your turn, the power doesn't end. The target has his turn.

In round 2, you sustain the power; the target takes damage, and the (save ends) kicks in. The power doesn't end at the end of your turn. The target has his turn, and he gets a save. If he fails, the power doesn't end, and you can sustain it again next turn. If he succeeds, the power ends, so you can't sustain it next turn.

-Hyp.
 

Hyp is right.

Effects all have durations that end when a certain condition is met. They all work along the lines of 'When X happens, this ends.'

All sustain does is remove the 'When the end of your turn happens, this ends' from an effect. It doesn't affect 'When 'the target saves' happens, this ends' end conditions on an effect.

Effects with (save ends) and with 'until the end of your turn//Sustain _____:' merely have two ways to end the power.
 

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