Sustained powers that "Save Ends"?

I've said so before ... read my other posts.
Because the (save ends) doesn't apply to the effect that is generated by the act of sustaining, but rather your ability to sustain.

Hence, where Tendrils of Thuban ought to be read as:

Sustain minor: <some stuff> (save ends)

Crown of Madness ought to be read as:

Sustain minor: <some stuff> (save ends)


Now, you could say "treat the <some stuff> for Crown the same as Tendrils" ... well, then ... go right ahead.
You made your save?
I sustain again ... erm ... there's nothing saying I can't.
Unless ... it's read as (save ends)
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, or your motivations for making this any murkier than it is already...

But we seem to agree on one point, perhaps the most important one:

The "save ends" can apply to either the effect or the "sustainability" and that this is determined by the "persistentness" (or "ongoingness") of the effect!

Am I right?

And if I am, don't you agree this is a rather newbie-unfriendly rule? :-)


Zapp

PS. Could it be that we differ on one point only; namely that you're arguing the target can free himself of the sustainability of the power already before the caster has begun sustaining it?
 

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Yup, that's what I'm saying.
You can only sustain on a hit .. so if the (save ends) condition is sustain minor:, they can end it immediately after you hit.
 

You can only sustain on a hit ..

This is the case with neither Crown of Madness nor Tendrils of Thuban; are you referring to a third power with a specific reference to the Sustain in the Hit entry?

With both Crown of Madness and Tendrils of Thuban, you can sustain the power whether the inital attack hits or not.

-Hyp.
 

The issue here is that "save ends" is directed towards the sustaining bit. How are we supposed to know this? Because the effect of sustaining is not ongoing.

Well what else -could- it save ends?

The basic attack?

The only persistant effect is the spell itself. Every other aspect of it is instantaneous.
 

This is the case with neither Crown of Madness nor Tendrils of Thuban; are you referring to a third power with a specific reference to the Sustain in the Hit entry?

With both Crown of Madness and Tendrils of Thuban, you can sustain the power whether the inital attack hits or not.

-Hyp.

Hmm.
Looks like an error on my part, thanks!
 

Well what else -could- it save ends?

The basic attack?

The only persistant effect is the spell itself. Every other aspect of it is instantaneous.
That's my point!

You need to parse the effects of sustain to see if you can find something that's persistant (if so, that's what the save ends) or not (if so, the save have to end the sustain, as there's nothing else for it to end)...

This, I maintain, is very much NOT easy for a newbie...

...or for anyone at all, really (judging from the confusion hanging over this very thread... ;-)
 

Heck, my players even get confused by the business of making a choice to sustain a power the round after you use it! It seems logical to them that you cast the power and in the round you cast it you choose whether you want to sustain it or not, so the actual process takes them aback each time.

Cheers
 

This latter aspect is because it removes the need for you to remember something, methinks. Placing the decision-making close to when the results happen, and all that.
 

Seems simple enough to me.

1. Warlock cast Crown of Madness, Hit's or Miss's target and does damage.
The target now has a effect upon him
2. End of targets turn it gets to make a save (but fails).
3. Warlock chooses to sustain Crown of Madness, (target now has to make
a basic attack against a target of Warlocks choosing.
4. Target goes again and at the end of it's turn it makes another save.
(suceeds), effect is gone.
5. Warlocks turn, effect is gone and has nothing to sustain.
 

Seems simple enough to me.

1. Warlock cast Crown of Madness, Hit's or Miss's target and does damage.
The target now has a effect upon him
2. End of targets turn it gets to make a save (but fails).
3. Warlock chooses to sustain Crown of Madness, (target now has to make
a basic attack against a target of Warlocks choosing.
4. Target goes again and at the end of it's turn it makes another save.
(suceeds), effect is gone.
5. Warlocks turn, effect is gone and has nothing to sustain.

This. Exactly this.
 

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