Sustained powers that "Save Ends"?

Effects with (save ends) and with 'until the end of your turn//Sustain _____:' merely have two ways to end the power.

But that's not how Crown of Madness is phrased.

Hit: 2d6 + Charisma modifier psychic damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Sustain Minor: The target makes a melee basic attack against one of its adjacent allies of your choice (save ends).

We need to look at p278:

Sustained Durations: An effect that has a "sustain standard", a "sustain move", or a "sustain minor" duration lasts as long as you sustain it. Starting on the turn after you create an effect, you sustain the effect by taking the indicated action: a standard action, a move action, or a minor action. (You can sustain an effect once per turn.) Some effects do something, such as attack, when you sustain them. A power's description indicates what happens when you sustain it or let it lapse. At the end of your turn, if you haven't spent the required action to sustain the effect, the effect ends.

So the effect that has a "sustain minor" duration is Crown of Madness.

Starting on the turn after you create Crown of Madness, you sustain Crown of Madness by taking a minor action. At the end of your turn, if you haven't spent the minor action, Crown of Madness ends.

Before the turn after you create Crown of Madness - that is, on the turn you create Crown of Madness - Crown of Madness doesn't end. Sustain only applies starting on the turn after.

So, starting on the turn after you create Crown of Madness, there are two ways for Crown of Madness to end - 1. you don't sustain Crown of Madness on your turn; or 2. the opponent saves on his turn.

Before the turn after you create Crown of Madness, there's no way for Crown of Madness to end - you're not required to sustain it yet, and (save ends) is not yet applicable.

-Hyp.
 

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Well, all I can say is that a short phrase would have made this kind of duration infinitely more easy to understand for those w/o ENWorld access...
 

Unfortunately, Hyp ... I don't think you've proved a point at all ...

Under sustain, if you fail to sustain on the turn after, the effect ends .. sure ...
But that still doesn't explain the (save ends).
If you fail to sustain, the power ends then ... but where does it say the power can't end sooner than your first opportunity to sustain?

See, if it's as you say, and the (save ends) is caused by sustaining, then wouldn't it only apply only to the line(s) after the Sustain Minior: bit?
Are they saving against the power, or against the effect due to sustaining?


Taking a different example: Tendrils of Thuban (Warlock 15)
Sustaining there can cause an ongoing effect, which the target(s) can save against.
Does that then mean you can no longer sustain the zone?!


You can't have it both ways ... the (save ends) either applies to the effect caused by sustaining, in which case you can sustain indefinitely regardless of saving, or it applies to the duration of the power as a whole.
 

danceofmasks: You can't save against 'a single melee attack against an ally', as that's not an durational effect. That's like save ends against a fireball.


So therefore (save ends) cannot -possibly- apply to that as it would a condition. That's nonsense. The only thing that save ends can effect is the power itself.

Also, zones are persistant effects on an area, by definition. You can't (save ends) a zone, because a zone is not an effect on you. You can, however, (save ends) the effects the zone creates, which is a different story altogether.
 
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Okay, I know I'm low-man on the forum totempole here, but I read up in the in the core books and heres what I've found:

Page 59 of the PHB: "Sustain:..if a power has a 'sustain' entry, you can keep that power active by taking a specified type of action (minor, move,or standard) during your turn. The 'Sustain' entry tells you if a power has an effect that occurs when you take the action to sustain it. See 'durations,' page 278, for more about sustaining a power."

So, page 278 tells us now: 'Durations: Many poers take effect and then end; their effects are instantaneous, perhaps as brief as a single swing of your sword. Some powers last beyond your turn, however.
'Unless otherwise noted, a power is instantaneous and has no lasting effect. The two types of durations are conditional and sustained.
'Durations: Conditional Durations: These effects last until a specified event occurs.
'Until the start of your next turn: The effect ends when your next turn starts.
'Until the end of your next turn: The effect ends when your next turn ends.
'Until the end of the encounter: The effect ends when you take a rest (short or extended) or after 5 minutes.
'Save Ends: the effect ends when the target makes a successful saving throw against it.'

Now then, that, coupled with what is listed about sustained durations (which was already previously reviewed) should be considered with what is listed on page 279 of the PHB, "Saving Throws":
'When you're under a persistent effect or condition that can be ended by a save ("save ends"), you have a chance to escape the effect each round at the end of your turn. You do that bty making a saving through, which is a d20 roll unmodified by your level or ability modifiers. A successful saving throw is called a save.
'Saving Throws:
'End of turn: at the end of your turn, you make a saving throw against each effect on you that a save can end. Roll a d20, with one of the following results:
'Lower than 10: Failure. The effect continues.
'10 or higher: Success. The effect ends.
'Choose order: Whenever you make a saving throw, you choose which effect to roll against first, which effect to roll against second, and so on.
'Modifiers: A saving throw normally doesn't include modifiers. It's just a d20 roll. Some powers, feats, or racial traits might modify a saving throw."

There, at the risk of having broken my poor wrist for nothing, let me sum all that stuff up for this specific case of Crown of Madness:

It's a minor action to sustain it. Each time you sustain the effect, the enemy you targetted makes a melee basic against one of it's adjacent allies that you've chosen. Now, to end your sustained effect upon the enemy, the creature will make a saving throw (as outlined above). If it's successful, it's not under the effect. If it's not successful, it's still affected UNLESS! you've not bothered to sustain the effect at your turn. Other than that, at the end of the creature's turn each round, it has to try the saving throw again.

Hope that helps you all out - it does seem more complicated than it needs to be with these saving throws, but I think that's cause so many of us are used to saving throws being Against something specific.
 

The issue here is that "save ends" is directed towards the sustaining bit. How are we supposed to know this? Because the effect of sustaining is not ongoing.

This is very confusing for newbies. It would have been a great help if there was explicit text to address this, such as "If the target saves, you cannot sustain this power" to separate this case from the more usual case for "save ends", namely that a save ends the condition or ongoing damage you're currently suffering from.

In this case, what you're suffering from is the evils of a sustainable power, and this is what the save ends. Probably too subtle - a case where cutting down on verbose rules language probably was a bad call. Specifically: having to process the effect in order to understand what "save ends" is directed at introduces a somewhat complicated extra step that I would say is not good design.

---

Contrast with a hypotethical power with either of these lines:
Sustain minor: Target take ongoing 5 damage (save ends)
Sustain minor: Target is pulled 1 square (save ends)
Sustain minor: Target is slowed (save ends)

Do you see the fundamental difference between cases 1 & 3 on one hand, and case 2 on the other? Well, a newbie might easily miss this.

In fact, this is exactly what made me start this thread... :-/
 

danceofmasks: You can't save against 'a single melee attack against an ally', as that's not an durational effect. That's like save ends against a fireball.


So therefore (save ends) cannot -possibly- apply to that as it would a condition. That's nonsense. The only thing that save ends can effect is the power itself.

Also, zones are persistant effects on an area, by definition. You can't (save ends) a zone, because a zone is not an effect on you. You can, however, (save ends) the effects the zone creates, which is a different story altogether.

Umm, dude!
That's exactly what I've been saying.
The (save ends) must be applied to the power as a whole, and therefore, the enemy gets a save before your first sustain.
 

This begs the question: what would an exhaustive and authorative answer to the question "which persistent effects or conditions that can be ended by a save are included in the game?" be?

In the above example, "take ongoing damage" is clearly a persistent effect. And so is "slowed". (Actually, it's a condition, not an effect. But the results are the same.)

But apparently, "make a melee basic attack against one of your adjacent allies" is not. And this is the only clue you get that the "save ends" should be applied to a completely different mechanic, namely the fact this effect is sustainable?

It would be much cleaner not to have to ask yourself "is the effect something that can be ended by a save" before you can determine whether the sustainability itself can be ended by the save!

For instance, returning to the example above, why can't "being pulled 1 square" be a persistent effect a save could end? The power's fluff could be that of a mesmerizing gaze, a siren's call, or the like.

In this (hypothetical) case, the target would get a save against the pulling effect, but as long as the caster sustains, he would reapply a "new" pulling effect each round, thus making any saves pointless until after the caster ceases to sustain the effect... only then would a successful save free the target...



Again, including the text "If the target saves, you cannot sustain this power" would have made the rules crystal clear!
 
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Danceofmasks: Unless the caster chooses to sustain, there is nothing to save against. At least when the "save ends" appears under the sustain heading.

And you don't sustain until the turn after you "cast the spell" (used the power).

So much is clear. Could I ask you to focus on the bits and pieces that aren't?
 

I've said so before ... read my other posts.
Because the (save ends) doesn't apply to the effect that is generated by the act of sustaining, but rather your ability to sustain.

Hence, where Tendrils of Thuban ought to be read as:

Sustain minor: <some stuff> (save ends)

Crown of Madness ought to be read as:

Sustain minor: <some stuff> (save ends)


Now, you could say "treat the <some stuff> for Crown the same as Tendrils" ... well, then ... go right ahead.
You made your save?
I sustain again ... erm ... there's nothing saying I can't.
Unless ... it's read as (save ends)
 

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