SW saga edition problems and gotchas?

[Plane Sailing]

I'm thinking about dusting off my SWSE and giving it a go again (and possibly using it as a basis for a fantasy game too, taking advantage of good work that some here have already done in that respect).

I've got a question for you good people who have done a fair bit of SWSE gaming though... What are the problem areas, or the gotchas in the system?

Is there any vital errata (or suggested errata) which I ought to know about?

Are there any loopholes to the system that could cause problems (e.g. stacking effects which drive people down the condition track too quickly, for instance)?

Looking forward to your collected wisdom!

Cheers

 

[The_Gneech]

I haven't noticed any major holes, although the official SWSE boards have a few topics that come up over and over again, especially about Move Object and Fool's Luck (see below).

My only real hangup has been the encounter-building guidelines, but I finally figured those out while I was building my XP Budget conversion. The book says one thing, the errata says another, and the current lead developer says a third! But to put it real simply, your average party level x3 = the total number of enemy levels to throw at them (roughly), with no single enemy element being more than +2/-2 from the average -- adjust up or down to tweak the difficulty. (Or, for that matter, you're welcome to use my XP Budget conversion! )

It does take a little getting used to, but some quickie observations:

• Multiclassing is easy, doesn't screw up play balance, and is intended to be done for almost all character builds. Do it a lot!
• Recommended house rule: allow someone to take Skill Training in one of the class skills when they multiclass, particularly if they've already got all the starter feats for the new class. You won't miss cross-class skill ranks half as much this way.
• There are lots of skill checks vs. defense scores, especially Jedi with Use the Force. Scoundrels have a talent ("Fool's Luck" IIRC) that gives them +5 with skill checks during an encounter. Therefore, Scoundrel/Jedi can be a broken combination. Recommended house rule: any time a skill check is done against a defense score, it is considered "an attack" for purposes of Fool's Luck (and therefore only gets a +1).
• Remember that modifiers go +/- 1, 2, 5, 10. If something is -4 in d20, it's probably -5 in SWSE.
• Status on the condition track is more important than hit points, usually.
• Second wind can save your bacon, but is not always enough.
• Going to 0 hp knocks you out, unless it's accompanied by more damage than your threshold. It's easy to defeat someone, but much harder to actually kill them.
• Charge is a standard action. Do it a lot!
• You can take an attack of opportunity with a blaster.

That's all I can remember off the top of my head. Overall it's a very fast, clean system and I heartily recommend it.

-The Gneech

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm tempted to merge together some of the things I like from 4e with SWSE - in particular the following:

• fixed hp
• healing surges & related death/dying rules
• same BAB across all classes (half level)

I'd also like to find a way of harmonising attacks vs defences and skills vs defences, since those seem a little wonky in SWSE at the moment.

Cheers

 

[Hammerhead]

I've seen the Condition Spike (two Force Stuns from the Jedi, and Dastardly Strike from the Scoundrel...there are many ways to knock someone down that track) take out more than a few very powerful opponents very quickly. It's more than a little unsatisfying. It creates a KO-spiral.

If I were in charge of rewriting the rules, I'd get rid of the Defense penalty imposed by conditions.

 

[The_Gneech]

I'm tempted to merge together some of the things I like from 4e with SWSE - in particular the following:

• fixed hp

Shouldn't be a problem as long as it's done across the board. If you set it to Max HP, fights will take forever, so I'd recommend setting it to "exactly average".

• healing surges & related death/dying rules

Not familiar enough w/ 4E to address.

• same BAB across all classes (half level)

If you do that, I highly recommend giving the Soldier something nice to compensate, because his full BAB is one his major goodies. (The Jedi gets full BAB too, but is probably fine without it.) You'll also want to examine how it interacts with defense scores, particularly at higher levels. Right now it's designed so that BAB will eventually overtake defense scores, making attacks (from both sides) hit more often as levels go up. This is kept in balance by the fact that hit points go up faster than damage done. If you drastically reduce BAB across the board, high-level fights are going to slow down considerably as it will become harder to hit than the system is balanced for. You'll either have to lower hit points or increase damage -- either of which option will tend to make combat more "swingy."

I'd also like to find a way of harmonising attacks vs defences and skills vs defences, since those seem a little wonky in SWSE at the moment.

Over time, they even out, but yeah, at low levels there's a bit of a disparity. One way is to change the skill check vs. defenses into an attack vs. defenses, using 3/4 BAB + Cha Mod, which can only be done if you are trained in the appropriate skill.

-The Gneech

 

[Spatula]

IME healing is too slow for a cinematic game. There's a force power that helps, and jedi can heal faster than normal, but I don't think that the game should hinge on having one particular force power available.

Making force attacks a skill check is a big design flaw IMO. Force powers are ridiculously effective at low levels as a result.

I don't think that giving everyone 1/2 BAB would work well in Saga. In 4e, your class attack bonus is only part of the picture, and you have magic item and stat boosts making up the difference. Whereas SW isn't really about items at all.

 

[Obryn]

IMHO, the Force rules are kind of nuts... As mentioned above, they're skill checks vs. Defenses, and therefore can attain extremely high bonuses with little expense. Oddly, it starts out hugely overwhelming at low levels, but attains approximate parity with attacks at level 20. (Hardly an ideal situation, imho. I'd like better parity throughout the levels.)

Probably the best fix you can make for this, is to limit/restrict/nerf Skill Focus. I've seen varying solutions, like Skill Focus only granting a +1/2 or +1/3 or +1/4 level bonus to Skill rolls; or else restricting it to higher levels where the math is less wonky.

If you want the Force to be awesome all the time, it's not a huge problem. OTOH, if you want your Jedi to actually use their lightsabers, it is. (And, out of combat, it means that Mind Trick basically always works.)

I wish it would have been its own kind of attack roll instead of a skill check, but there you have it.


Also, in the errata, many powers' DC changed to the target's Damage Threshold instead of a Defense. I'd recommend, instead, that you use the appropriate Size Modifier to the appropriate Defense for these cases; otherwise Improved Damage Threshold becomes a must-have feat.


Finally, I'd consider adopting a houserule that makes it easier for melee characters to use Full Attacks. With the current system - which has Withdrawal as a Move Action - it's very easy to escape from people and get far, far away. Quick fixes include making Withdrawal a Standard action, incorporating some feats/prestige classes from KotOR, or just allowing characters to use all their attacks after a single move.

-O

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

If using SWSE for fantasy, how do you compensate non-force (magic) users for not having blasters doing nasty damage. Seems to me, the Force (magic) will be overpowered?

 

[Obryn]

IME healing is too slow for a cinematic game. There's a force power that helps, and jedi can heal faster than normal, but I don't think that the game should hinge on having one particular force power available.

This is quite true. It means long recovery times after big fights.

I don't think that giving everyone 1/2 BAB would work well in Saga. In 4e, your class attack bonus is only part of the picture, and you have magic item and stat boosts making up the difference. Whereas SW isn't really about items at all.

I agree completely. I think SWSE is balanced with 1 or 0.75 BABs in mind.

-O

 

[drothgery]

If using SWSE for fantasy, how do you compensate non-force (magic) users for not having blasters doing nasty damage. Seems to me, the Force (magic) will be overpowered?

You have normal weapons deal two dice of damage, ala SWSE 'advanced melee weapons' (aka vibroweapons) and lightsabers. Throw in some strength bonuses and you're dealing as much damage as blasters much of the time.