Swallow Whole questions

[Infiniti2000]

Well, if it deals regular damage, then against a tendriculos, you just plain can't cut your way out. Only bludgeoning and acid does regular damage (all other damage is nonlethal), but it specifically says it requires slashing or piercing. It's a paradoxical situation with that interpretation.

 

[Gansk]

Well, if it deals regular damage, then against a tendriculos, you just plain can't cut your way out. Only bludgeoning and acid does regular damage (all other damage is nonlethal), but it specifically says it requires slashing or piercing. It's a paradoxical situation with that interpretation.

The bite natural weapon does all three types of damage. Why can't a dragon use its bite to get out?

For a PC, it's far more difficult. But if he or she did 25 points of damage in one round, or even more than 10 points every round, why can't that damage be used to make the hole before it regens? It would still be easier to attempt the grapple check to go out via the mouth or make yourself immune to paralysis and acid and hang on while your friends killed it.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The bite natural weapon does all three types of damage. Why can't a dragon use its bite to get out?

Hmm. Good point. The bite does both bludgeoning and at least one of the other two. I suppose he could bite his way out. That doesn't make it easy for someone without a weapon that does at least two types of damage, though, and I can't think that that's the intent.

For a PC, it's far more difficult. But if he or she did 25 points of damage in one round, or even more than 10 points every round, why can't that damage be used to make the hole before it regens? It would still be easier to attempt the grapple check to go out via the mouth or make yourself immune to paralysis and acid and hang on while your friends killed it.

25 points of nonlethal damage. Do you really think that nonlethal damage results in a gaping hole in a creatures abdomen large enough for a man-sized or even horse-sized dragon to climb out?

Maybe there's not a clear rules-leg to stand on here, but I just think that applying the damage to the creature severely devalues the swallow whole ability, arguably to a point where it becomes a detriment to swallow victims. With the right defenses, 'victims' might even decide not to escape the swallowing because it might be easier to damage the creature from the inside. As one example, the tendriculos in this example shouldn't get a reflex save from the dragon's breath weapon, right?

 

[Goolpsy]

I cant remember if its said anywhere that a dragon can swallow anyone.. but im pretty sure alot of people play it that way.. so lets compare for a while.. and lets say you have an armor reducing the Acid damage taken by 10 each round...

lets find a fun *little* 3.0 dragon.. etc.
while eaten.. u take? 4d6 Acid damage..and 4d8 crushing damage? or more?

While this fun little rGreat wyrm red dragon deals 24d10 with its breath..
Or using +5 attacks each turn dealing at least 10d8 + 12d6 + 4x STR

If the dragon count its damage reduction, only the little thief with his little weapon have a chance to cut its way through.. But in NO describtion of the Swallow whole does it say anything about one having to count the damage reduction too, the Gizzard is described as a *Creature* or its own..

 

[Gansk]

25 points of nonlethal damage. Do you really think that nonlethal damage results in a gaping hole in a creatures abdomen large enough for a man-sized or even horse-sized dragon to climb out?

This thing is made out of leaves and mulch. Can't you cut in a hole in a plant without doing lethal damage to it?

As one example, the tendriculos in this example shouldn't get a reflex save from the dragon's breath weapon, right?

Well, that's a whole other of can of worms you're opening there. I'm sure if you did a search of this forum, you would find debates about whether a reflex save is still possible even if the source of the damage has total concealment. As far as I know, there's no clear ruling on the subject.

 

[Gansk]

If the dragon count its damage reduction, only the little thief with his little weapon have a chance to cut its way through.. But in NO describtion of the Swallow whole does it say anything about one having to count the damage reduction too, the Gizzard is described as a *Creature* or its own..

Why does it have to say that DR counts on the inside? DR can mean a very tough exterior, but it can also be described as instant healing. Nor does it say that the gizzard has its own pool of hit points.

 

[LordSkull]

Regeneration treats all but the specials (usually acid and fire) as nonlethal. This does not mean that cuts are not made. With a trolls regen you cut it and a wound opens blood spills it feels pain but the wound closes so quickly and the skin reknits it is as if the damage didn't really happen as far as a death sense goes. Thus cutting your way out is possible and you would have to work pretty quick as the regen will close the HOLE (not whole ) to a degree as you cut. Still technically NON lethal damage (Unless you allow that the stomach acid does more perm damage. As we all know stomachs are usually have an acid resistant lining to prevent damage to the being that posesses the stomach acid.) So in your example the dragon could claw & bite its way out. The Hole will close up behind it. Also in the descripptions of some of the swallower monsters w/o Regen they say that the muscles close the Hole after the person has escaped and thus any new creatures swallowed need to start over. In the case of NON regens could go either way as to damage from the inside out. I lean more toward the side of actual damage being dealt. Remember MOST of the swallowers have low int. They see people as FOOD and food doesn't cut its way out so would not think twice about swallowing. A Dragon on the other hand would be less likely to Swallow Whole possibly just for this reason. I can reccognize the dangers in swallowing a steel clad warrior. Damage reduction is another matter. Considering it is usually a result of the toughness of a creatures hide/skin/armor/flexability may not apply inside. I guess it would depend on what grants it the DR. For example a Werewolf (lets pretend it can swallow whole) would still require Silver or magic to bypass the DR. That pretty much how I would run it and my interpretations of the rules.

 

[Goolpsy]

The damage reduction could also just as well be a special ability *magic* but in a sense still counting in an antimagic field....

And actually in some ways, its a godo thing to swallow *things* as they wont be able to join the big bad battle outside, hence you (the dragon) would be able to kill the rest of the party more easily...

 

[Ballard_Alvar]

Regeneration treats all but the specials (usually acid and fire) as nonlethal. This does not mean that cuts are not made. With a trolls regen you cut it and a wound opens blood spills it feels pain but the wound closes so quickly and the skin reknits it is as if the damage didn't really happen as far as a death sense goes. Thus cutting your way out is possible and you would have to work pretty quick as the regen will close the HOLE (not whole ) to a degree as you cut. Still technically NON lethal damage (Unless you allow that the stomach acid does more perm damage. As we all know stomachs are usually have an acid resistant lining to prevent damage to the being that posesses the stomach acid.) So in your example the dragon could claw & bite its way out. The Hole will close up behind it

Correct. When you hit the troll with a sword. the troll is cut - heal darn quick though.
also, something to be noted in this convo. the "hole closes" thing is an intrinsic property of the Swallow Whole special ability. see the following. regen has nothing to do with this particular hole closing.

Swallow Whole (Ex): If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent held in its mouth (see Improved Grab), it can attempt a new grapple check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed has various consequences, depending on the creature doing the swallowing. A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is noted in the creature description), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

On a different note, I had not concintered before that the stomach could be considered another creature. In my group, HP are a property of a creature, and you are awarded xp for defeating a creature; so following that logic, since there are no xp given for defeating a stomach that the HP delt to the said organ are delt to the creature and are subject to fast healing/regeneration. In the case of regeneration/SW combo, the sword(short) cuts your way out, although does deal non leathal damage. For simlpiciy sake if the creature has DR, we try not to think what it represents and just apply it. In a system with Natural Armor and DR, it is best not to think about it as they represent basically the same thing in two different ways.

 

[Infiniti2000]

On a different note, I had not concintered before that the stomach could be considered another creature.

In many cases, the Swallow Whole ability states that you do damage to the gizzard, which closes up afterwards and each new creature must cut its own way out again.