Swarms and Templates in general

[ravenheart]

Hi,

I've been trying to find hard rules on how to make a regular creature a swarm (i.e. adding the swarm keyword), but I can't seem to find any. Specifically, what are the no-no's and the must have's of a swarm? In addition, how does it affect the original creatures XP value?

I've checked out the Swarm template in the ENWorld Wiki, but that makes it impossible to have a non-elite or non-solo swarm.

Speaking of which, my second question: any good source of non-humanoid templates other than the two (if I remember correct) in the DMG? How about templates that increase the creatures size catgeory?

Thanks in advance, I really appreciate any help I can get!

 

[Mesh Hong]

You are probably better off just building a creature from scratch.

The only important things for swarms are:

Resist: half damage from weapon and ranged attacks
Vulnerable: X close and area effects
Aura: X (usually 1) at the start of its turn Swarm makes a free basic attack against all enemies inside aura.

I would be happy to suggest a design for a swarm if you need a hand.

Hope this helps.

 

[ravenheart]

You are probably better off just building a creature from scratch.

I'm not so sure. I think there are lots of interesting monsters in the MM and other supplements that could be made into swarms (or hordes or throngs, depending on type and size). What I'd like is a set of simple guidelines for swarm-creation that could be easily applied to any base creature. In particular those concerning size and XP value.

I mean, if I add a "free basic attack"-aura, resistances and vulnerabilities, am I not fundamentally altering that creatures role and abilities, making it potentially more lethal, thus requiring it to have a greater XP value, and thus completely changing the encounter budget?

The same goes for handling swarms of small, medium or large sized creatures - how does a large or huge-sized swarm affect the encounter balance? Or why not just have a large swarm of rats, for instance?

The only important things for swarms are:

Resist: half damage from weapon and ranged attacks
Vulnerable: X close and area effects
Aura: X (usually 1) at the start of its turn Swarm makes a free basic attack against all enemies inside aura.

True. But how do these abilites affect the creature creation process? Are they just added for free? Maybe we could work some backwards engineering on the swarms and compare them to other creatures of the same level with the same role?

Here are the swarms in the MM for easier reference:
Rot Scarab Swarm (p. 30)
Needlefang Drake Swarm (p. 90)
Rat Swarm (p. 219)
Shadowraven Swarm (p. 243)
Bloodweb Spider Swarm (p. 246) - NOTE: The aura of the bloodweb spiders have an additional slow effect (save ends). How does this factor into monster balance?
Stirge Swarm (p. 248)

BTW, the Kobold Horde (DR 364, p. 59) doesn't have an aura. What can we make of that?

I would be happy to suggest a design for a swarm if you need a hand.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the offer, but I'm not in particular need of a swarm right now, I'm just fascinated by the mechanics.

I was actually more interested in the second part of my question, namely what to do mechanically when I wish to increase (or decrease, for that matter) the size of a creature. What could I compare a size-change to when adjusting a creatures level or role? To me this seemed to fit well with the template function, so I'll try and make a template:

Prerequisite: Beast or magical beast
Dire Beast Elite Brute
Beast or Magical Beast XP Elite
One size-category larger than base creature
Defenses +4 Fortitude
Saving Throws +2
Action Point 1
Hit Points +10 per level + Constitution score
POWERS
Trample (standard, encounter)
The dire beast shifts its speed. During this shift it can move through enemy squares and make a free basic attack against each enemy whose square it moves through. On a hit, the enemy is knocked prone.
etc. etc.

This is far from perfect, but I think it could work given some finetuning. On the other hand, I'm not sure this would be the best solution in all situations. For instance, when decreasing the size of a creature to simulate "young" creatures (or something similar) - they would hardly be the elite of that species? Just to clarify, I don't condone killing children in any way.

Another thing I lack guidelines for are minion creation. Sure, it's easy to remove all hitpoints but one and set a fixed damage, but what about defenses? What exactly should that fixed damage be? Maybe we need a sort of "minion anti-template". Or maybe I'm just daydreaming. Actually, it would be nice to see some of these things adressed in DMG2. *hint, hint developers!*


Finally I just want to say this: Yes, I acknowledge the fact that the 4th Edition design philosophy involves taking a step back from complicated monster creation rules, but still SOME guidelines must be utilized (as we know by the basic minion, elite and solo mechanics). They might not be rigid and all encompassing, but they're guidelines nonetheless. And I'd like to have them, thank you!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

One or two things might be noted:

Swarms in general are widely acknowledged to be quite easy to unbalance. I'm not really convinced that whatever guidelines the designers might have followed really work well for low level swarms. Certainly the Needlefang Drake Swarm is WAY over the top on damage potential at level 2. The general mechanic of a 'free attack aura' which most swarms seem to use makes them tricky to balance since any increase in damage or to-hit can have a multiplicative effect on the creature's damage dealing potential. The other problem with balancing swarms is that the power of the creature is unusually highly dependent on party structure. A party heavy on ranged and area attacks will handle most of them easily, while a party made up of all melee attackers could be slaughtered. They also play funny with encounter balance at different levels, being usually a lot deadlier as an N+ level monster, but a lot less deadly as an N- encounter component. All of this pretty much tells me that swarms are a case where you probably want to tune them specifically to match with the party. So I am not sure a template is actually a good idea for swarms.

I think you're elite brute template is OK. Not sure if all the numbers are exactly the best, but it seems like pretty much an elite template with some slight changes. I think it will leave certain defenses over weak, but that is rather typical for brutes. I wouldn't consider it a general receipe for all size changes, but probably most oversize monsters are likely to be brutes just for thematic reasons. The charge mechanic might not be appropriate for all of them though. Some might instead want to have reach for example. Also you missed providing any damage bonuses on their attacks. I would suggest either moving up to the maximum damage expression for that level, or increasing the main attack by a die size. I would also think it may not work so well on certain monsters, soldiers in particular may just end up being too tough.

As for downsizing, thats also going to be a bit tricky. Some things are reasonably obvious. Decreasing damage expression or downsizing damage die. Removing or reducing reach by 1. Of course you may need to actually ADD something, given that the monster is the same level as before then in theory it should be about the same challenge. Exactly what you would add though is hard to really quantify in a template.

As for minionization. It appears that the essential process is to remove certain exceptional powers. Generally minions have one mode of attack. Maybe they can use their weapon at range (ala the Kobold Minion), but they usually lose at least some ancillary powers. Other than that there is usually a general reduction in defenses vs a normal monster of the same level, but it isn't entirely consistent. As a quick rule of thumb I would decrease 2-4 of the creature's defenses by 1. If actually designing minions from scratch I would simply design them as normal creatures and give them 1 hit point. That seems to be essentially what the MM authors did.

 

[Mesh Hong]

I'm not so sure. I think there are lots of interesting monsters in the MM and other supplements that could be made into swarms (or hordes or throngs, depending on type and size). What I'd like is a set of simple guidelines for swarm-creation that could be easily applied to any base creature. In particular those concerning size and XP value.

OK, I think we approach the game from 2 different angles. I like the system because I can easily design any creature I like at any level. While you equally like the system because you can easily apply a template to a standard creature to add variety.

I mean, if I add a "free basic attack"-aura, resistances and vulnerabilities, am I not fundamentally altering that creatures role and abilities, making it potentially more lethal, thus requiring it to have a greater XP value, and thus completely changing the encounter budget?

Not necessarily, it is gaining a free aura attack, but the vulnerability and resistances sort of cancel each other out. The main other point is that the creature should have a low or standard damage value, and probably only one other attack power, probably either recharge or encounter.

The same goes for handling swarms of small, medium or large sized creatures - how does a large or huge-sized swarm affect the encounter balance? Or why not just have a large swarm of rats, for instance?

I think at minimum a "large sized creature" swarm would have aura 2 free attack, and a reach 2 attack. Otherwise it would probably follow the same rules......it just depends on what the creatures are. Can you really see the need for an Ogre Swarm or a Young Red Dragon Swarm?

The only important things for swarms are:

Resist: half damage from weapon and ranged attacks
Vulnerable: X close and area effects
Aura: X (usually 1) at the start of its turn Swarm makes a free basic attack against all enemies inside aura.

True. But how do these abilites affect the creature creation process? Are they just added for free? Maybe we could work some backwards engineering on the swarms and compare them to other creatures of the same level with the same role?

The above mechanics are what makes a swarm a swarm (in most normal cases). They are not added for free, they are the foundation principles the creature is designed from.

Here are the swarms in the MM for easier reference:
Rot Scarab Swarm (p. 30)
Needlefang Drake Swarm (p. 90)
Rat Swarm (p. 219)
Shadowraven Swarm (p. 243)
Bloodweb Spider Swarm (p. 246) - NOTE: The aura of the bloodweb spiders have an additional slow effect (save ends). How does this factor into monster balance?
Stirge Swarm (p. 248)

BTW, the Kobold Horde (DR 364, p. 59) doesn't have an aura. What can we make of that?

The first 7 are indeed all standard swarms from the MM. You can see the general design intentions from them. With the Bloodweb Spider swarm having an additional interesting effect, and the Needlefang Drake Swarm having an overpowered effect against low level characters (pull down as a minor action in combination with big extra damage vs. prone creature).

I can't comment on the Kobold Swarm as I don't have that article. But it sounds like an interesting, non standard swarm.

The problem you are going to face is that all of these creatures havn't had a template attached to them to make them a swarm, they have been designed as a swarm. Hence my original comment that it would be better to just build your own swarms as needed.

I was actually more interested in the second part of my question, namely what to do mechanically when I wish to increase (or decrease, for that matter) the size of a creature. What could I compare a size-change to when adjusting a creatures level or role? To me this seemed to fit well with the template function, so I'll try and make a template:

This is far from perfect, but I think it could work given some finetuning. On the other hand, I'm not sure this would be the best solution in all situations. For instance, when decreasing the size of a creature to simulate "young" creatures (or something similar) - they would hardly be the elite of that species? Just to clarify, I don't condone killing children in any way.

Another thing I lack guidelines for are minion creation. Sure, it's easy to remove all hitpoints but one and set a fixed damage, but what about defenses? What exactly should that fixed damage be? Maybe we need a sort of "minion anti-template". Or maybe I'm just daydreaming. Actually, it would be nice to see some of these things adressed in DMG2. *hint, hint developers!*

If you want to just increase the size of a creature and keep it a standard creature you are probably best just giving it reach 2 (large) or 3 (huge) and keeping everything else the same. The actual size of a creature has no real bearing on its stats other than reach. (see vicejaw crocodile p46 and warforged soldier p262 - same HPs, same AC these are part of its role and level)

Your Dire Beast template is alright I think, though I am not an expert on templates. However I would give it +2 AC and +3 fortitude defences and change the trample attack to move instead of shift, and state that it provokes attacks of opportunity as normal during this move.

If you want to reduce the size of a creature then apply the opposite of increasing the size of a creature. medium to small - no change, small to tiny - not sure, I don't think there are any tiny sized single creatures? It might have reach 0 and have to enter the targets square (again I would say this would need to be a designed creature, not a template)

To turn a standard creature into a minion all you need to do is to reduce it to 1 HP, decrease the xp to the correct amount (4 minions = 1 standard creature), and add an interesting "on miss reaction" or quirky conditional power. Also look at its powers and reduce them to its basic attacks and up to 1 additional power. All its defences etc can stay the same.

Finally I just want to say this: Yes, I acknowledge the fact that the 4th Edition design philosophy involves taking a step back from complicated monster creation rules, but still SOME guidelines must be utilized (as we know by the basic minion, elite and solo mechanics). They might not be rigid and all encompassing, but they're guidelines nonetheless. And I'd like to have them, thank you!

I think the guidlines in the DMG are fine, once you understand them. I agree they could have been written more clearly and had a couple of examples to guide you through. Have you tried Asmors Monster maker? it does a lot of the maths for you making designing creatures much quicker and will give you consistant results.