Swift Actions

[Pinotage]

Don't have the books on me at the moment - can you apply metamagic rods to swift actions, such as Extend spell on Swift Fly?

Pinotage

 

[ThirdWizard]

You can, metamagic rods are use activated, so they don't make an action take longer than usual.

Note that a sorcerer, for example, will still require the full round action to cast a metamagiced spell, so it's probably not worthwhile if it is normally a Swift Action.

 

[Pinotage]

Great! Getting that extra 1 round out of a swift action can be quite valuable. I was thinking of the Complete Adventurer spell Distract Assailant, which if extended would last two round, and give your rogue or assassin double time to smack his flat-footed opponent.

Pinotage

 

[Thanee]

Note that wizards (or rather prepared casters in general) have to use metamagic rods during preparation (that's also use activated), anyways, as they just confer the feat use, and wizards use metamagic feats like that.

Metamagic rods do not grant spontaneous use of metamagic feats (and should not, they are powerful enough as is)!

Bye
Thanee

 

[glass]

Note that wizards (or rather prepared casters in general) have to use metamagic rods during preparation (that's also use activated), anyways, as they just confer the feat use, and wizards use metamagic feats like that.

They do? I never realised that. I'll have to read that section again.


glass.

 

[Thanee]

Well, it's not very clearly written for sure, but they don't really say, that they can be used spontaneously. They *do* say, that they give you the ability to use the metamagic feat.

So unless you can find a good reason why the usual restrictions of using such a metamagic feat would not apply, I suppose they do.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pinotage]

Well, it's not very clearly written for sure, but they don't really say, that they can be used spontaneously. They *do* say, that they give you the ability to use the metamagic feat.

So unless you can find a good reason why the usual restrictions of using such a metamagic feat would not apply, I suppose they do.

Bye
Thanee

Did they state it clearly in Tome and Blood where they first appeared?

Pinotage

 

[jasin]

Well, it's not very clearly written for sure, but they don't really say, that they can be used spontaneously. They *do* say, that they give you the ability to use the metamagic feat.

So unless you can find a good reason why the usual restrictions of using such a metamagic feat would not apply, I suppose they do.

I don't think you're right at all...

"Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast." (Italics mine.)

Or are you saying that a wizard with an Empower rod has to prepare an Empowered fireball (instead of deciding to Empower it on the spot), but can prepare it in a 3rd-level slot...?

 

[Thanee]

Correct.

They do not change the spell slot. Check.

They also do not change the way the feat is used. Therefore the spell still has to be prepared, only the slot does not increase as per the item description.


Here's one part, which I think is quite important:

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day.

This here is often refered to as an argument, why they can be used spontaneouly:

All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity).

However, since sorcerers can use them spontaneously - as they normally use metamagic - that part has an obvious meaning, it could only refer to spontaneous spellcasters.

And use-activated also applies, if they are used during preparation.


The specific rod descriptions could also be read, like the spontaneous use was possible:

The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are empowered as though using the Empower Spell feat.

But regardless of how you apply the metamagic, in both cases you cast a metamagicked spell, so it works both ways.


Also the following part only really makes sense, if it works the way I say:

A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses.

Since otherwise all spontaneous casters (except sorcerers!) could use the rods without a time increase... but if you use the general rule for spontaneous metamagic (in the same way I say you have to use the general rule for prepared metamagic), then all spontaneous casters have the time increase, and the above quote can be seen as just an example for the spontaneous caster, the sorcerer.


On top of this comes the balance issues: Why should a sorcerer need to suffer a higher casting time (the "cost" to apply metamagic for spontaneous casters), but a wizard not have to prepare (the "cost" to apply metamagic for prepared casters)... and not even also suffer the time increase then, when even a spellcaster who already can apply metamagic spontaneously - and therefore obviously can do it "better" - cannot do so without this limitation?


@Pinotage: I think the text was the same, at least it was in no way more specific.

Bye
Thanee

 

[jasin]

Huh. What a well reasoned and supported argument. On the Internet, no less!

I suppose you're right, and I was wrong. I stand corrected.