D&D 4E Switching to 4e?

[Neonchameleon]

To me, there are several questions about your group.

The first is the playstyle. If you like gritty games in which people die in one hit, 4e isn't for you. In 4e you're all Big Damn Heroes. Also if you like Magic Solves All stick to 3e. (If you've not seen what can be done by a smartly played wizard or artificer and don't know what I mean by CoDzilla, you are lucky). Finally if you want a rule for everything, 4e really doesn't help.

4e plays like an action movie. Big combats (take out or merge the little ones unless you want a mook-stomp). Everyone's useful - you don't get fighters sitting there not able to do a hell of a lot or wizards turning the whole fight to a cleanup operation without trying. Equally wizards never run entirely out of spells (Vancian Casting's gone). But on the flip side they don't die in a single hit.

4e is a fun, action heavy and comparatively rules light RPG. But I'd try starting a new campaign rather than converting one. And it's a lot easier on the DM - things don't come entirely from out of nowhere from the PCs and it's a lot easier to judge a fair fight.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

To me, there are several questions about your group.

The first is the playstyle. If you like gritty games in which people die in one hit, 4e isn't for you. In 4e you're all Big Damn Heroes. Also if you like Magic Solves All stick to 3e. (If you've not seen what can be done by a smartly played wizard or artificer and don't know what I mean by CoDzilla, you are lucky). Finally if you want a rule for everything, 4e really doesn't help.

4e plays like an action movie. Big combats (take out or merge the little ones unless you want a mook-stomp). Everyone's useful - you don't get fighters sitting there not able to do a hell of a lot or wizards turning the whole fight to a cleanup operation without trying. Equally wizards never run entirely out of spells (Vancian Casting's gone). But on the flip side they don't die in a single hit.

4e is a fun, action heavy and comparatively rules light RPG. But I'd try starting a new campaign rather than converting one. And it's a lot easier on the DM - things don't come entirely from out of nowhere from the PCs and it's a lot easier to judge a fair fight.

Yeah, I agree that 4e is "action movie mechanics" totally. I think you can vary the grittiness quite a bit though in 4e. You won't achieve "one hit and your down" but there are ways to come close. The newer monsters help for instance. The DM can design encounters with terrain or other similar elements that can take someone right flat out too. I mean the game doesn't have rules for things like poisons that just kill you or whatnot, but the mechanics certainly support it if the DM wants it, you just won't get it by following the standard guidelines in the books.

I think this is a rather remarkably unexplored area with 4e. As an old-school D&Der it seems natural to me, but I see people that have been in 3.x and 4e land for a long while that seem to be loathe to just add in elements of a type they desire simply because the rules don't say "we advocate doing this kind of thing".

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think I'd call that danger, rather than grit. It's kinda hard to go too gritty when the party monk's doing Wire-Fu. That doesn't mean I can't make it damn lethal (I'm a big fan of throwing Spiderlings from the MM3 at PCs for an inevitable wave scenario or just scaring them with a short fight). And I can imagine a terrifying Alien style encounter using a solo lurker going well.

Hmm... Now I'm working on a version of WHFRP using 4e rules (and probably a level cap and slowed down experience). With Defiling being an ever-present temptation, but instead of hurting your allies you mutate. Although you would lose the career progression...

 

[Herschel]

Most has been said already, but it's the internet.

Take a look at the group. Then ask three questions:

1. Do people like more rules or less rules, especially outside of combat?
2. Do people have/like a lot of pre-game prep time, or just build a character and go?
3. Do people want to be the solo star, or do they prefer to work together to resolve a situation?

If the answers swing former, 3.5 is a great system, if they swing latter, 4E is the system.

 

[erleni]

I think people who complain about it, haven't been at the game table where the monsters are closing in and battering the heroes back and when the fighter's turn come up, he (or she) takes the breath and goes, "ok, I'm gonna use my daily" and everyone else at the table leans in because they know he's bringing the thunder. (and if you are in my group, it tends to set off the chain reaction of player's bringing out the big guns).

That's one thing I love about 4e. We tend to avoid using dailies if we feel we can get through an encounter. But then it comes that strange moment when the players understand that "this encounter is going bad" and then what we call the Rain of Dailies comes out (usually enhanced by some action points). This is something that I never experienced with the previous editions or at least not in the same way. It's like the calm before the storm. Last time it was after a devastating first combat round against a behir that almost killed the whole group (we only have three PCs). We looked at each other and said: Time to be Heroes.

I love 4e and will never go back. That's also why I don't like essentials too much.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That's one thing I love about 4e. We tend to avoid using dailies if we feel we can get through an encounter. But then it comes that strange moment when the players understand that "this encounter is going bad" and then what we call the Rain of Dailies comes out (usually enhanced by some action points). This is something that I never experienced with the previous editions or at least not in the same way. It's like the calm before the storm. Last time it was after a devastating first combat round against a behir that almost killed the whole group (we only have three PCs). We looked at each other and said: Time to be Heroes.

I love 4e and will never go back. That's also why I don't like essentials too much.

I agree, daily powers and APs are a great pacing mechanism. They are a great mechanism not just for the players either. 4e seems exceptionally good at dramatic combats where first the monsters come on strong, dropping their single-use powers and burning their APs. Suddenly the party seems to be on the rocks! Then the wave crests and the characters push back. The leader shores up the bloodied fighter's hit points and drops a big buff against the nasty brute, etc.

All the things that people decry so bitterly is exactly what makes the game so great (well, one of the things). The surge based healing system? Perfect for depicting comebacks. Action Points? No more awesome way to show the character pulling out all the stops for that last heroic effort. Daily powers? If you're going down, you aren't going down easy!

The same is true with the monsters. The entire asymmetrical way that they are structured compared to the PCs really feeds the game. Monsters are tough but you constantly make progress against them and they don't (usually) heal up and make you do it all over again. Their powers are either one-shots that knock back the characters (almost always at the early stage of a combat), bread-and-butter moves, or unpredictable wackiness that pops back up again at random (recharge powers).

Really, the basic structure of this whole portion of the game obviously was thought about a lot from a standpoint of what would create drama and tension. It hasn't always panned out perfectly, some of the knobs weren't quite tweaked to their best settings in the first few books, but the machine is really good for what it was made for. It just keeps getting better too. Even after running 4e since it shipped and having 30+ years of DMing experience I still keep finding ways to make ever more interesting and exciting encounters.

 

[Nichwee]

That's one thing I love about 4e.
<stuff>
Last time it was after a devastating first combat round against a behir that almost killed the whole group (we only have three PCs). We looked at each other and said: Time to be Heroes.

Those last four words sum it up for me. AP and Dailies, and the entire feel of 4E, just gives life to that sentence.

Everytime my group decides to "Bring The Thunder" by burning our big guns I find myself imagnining some version of a classic fantasy picture:
The rogue crouches low, his cloak practically seeming to call shadows up to hide him as two daggers seem to magically appear in his hands.
The barbarian stands tall, almost growing to new height, as he leans his body into the beginings of a charge with his two handed axe swinging into position behind his head ready to be brought down on, and possibly through, the target of his ire.
The wizard's eyes both become translucent and focused at the same time. She moves her hands elegently in the air as a series of streaks form between her hands. Great power is about to be unleashed as the air seems to still in preperation for this mighty explosion.
The cleric steps forward, his shield, emblazened with the symbol of his fiath, pushed to the front and his mace held aloft behind him. His visage seems to glow with both divine light and inner resolve. This man is here to stand with, and for, his comrades and the very legions of hell shall not move him from this choice.
The druid becomes as water, as his form flows like a crashing wave, upwards and forwards. Then as it begins to resolidify gone is the man, now stands only the savage bear. The might of nature and man have combined and shall put down those who oppose this embodiment of nature's power.

This is why I like the way 4E is done. Everyone gets to feel like the guys in the great artwork, or the stories they read, the ones that made you want to play D&D. Nobody has to feel like they are "just doing the same thing as always" (they can if they want to go with that style), everyone can play "THE HERO" at all levels of play and the entire system is designed to let them.
D&D 3/3.5 were great but they often had you feeling like you were 'hanging on to .... coattails' or 'trouncing stuff' - and had only a small window where everyone could feel they were truely heroes facing challenges. 4E takes that "All of us are heroes" feeling and keeps it alive throughout the levels from what I have seen - and this is why I love it.

I get splatted, I get back up, I succeed, I fail and I "Bring The Thunder" all before lunch - I earn the right to eat at Milliways and feel chuffed to boot.

 

[Riastlin]

I started out my D&D career playing a combination of AD&D/2nd Ed/1st Ed. Basically, we merged the books that we had and more or less made it up as we went.

When 3.0 came out we switched to that and stuck with 3.x until the release of 4.0 (at which point our group broke up as real life got in the way).

I then soon found a couple of new groups and have been playing 4th Ed. pretty steadily.

I have thoroughly enjoyed every incarnation that I have played, finding pros and cons in each.

In my opinion, you need to ask yourself two questions:

1) Is the group having fun now?
2) Is the reason to switch simply because 4th Ed is the now "current" edition as opposed to the possibility of having more fun?

In my mind, if the answers are "yes", then just stick with what you are doing. Don't fix what isn't broken. Sure, there are advantages to 4th Ed., especially for the DM, but if you are having fun now, then why mess with it?

If, on the other hand, you think you might have a lot more fun with 4th Ed., then by all means, give it a shot. I would recommend doing it on a trial basis (as opposed to a definitive edition switch), so that if you don't like it all that much, you can go back to your old game -- plus those who are not fully on board with trying the new edition will know that they have a safety net if it turns out 4th Ed. is not for them.

 

[Herschel]

D&D 3/3.5 were great but they often had you feeling like you were 'hanging on to .... coattails' or 'trouncing stuff' - and had only a small window where everyone could feel they were truely heroes facing challenges. 4E takes that "All of us are heroes" feeling and keeps it alive throughout the levels from what I have seen - and this is why I love it.

I get splatted, I get back up, I succeed, I fail and I "Bring The Thunder" all before lunch - I earn the right to eat at Milliways and feel chuffed to boot.

Yep, we had one of "those" moments last night in "Scales". The whole party is bloodied, my Barbarian has been failing his saves against being weakened and we're in a world of hurt. I'm staring in to the face of an undead dragon with the fighter and the shaman, the halfling avenger is using Lost In The Crowd to tie up baddies across the way and it doesn't look good for us.

Then, save made, the usually charismatic and thoughtful barbarian starts frothing at the mouth and Rage Strike, action point, Rage Strike for big damage. The dailies are flying and the party comes from what looks like a TPK to a probable win.

 

[darkwing]

If you have a chance to try D&D Encounters at your FLGS I would highly recommend it. You don't need to buy anything and it will give you a good chance to find out if it "feels" right to you.