D&D (2024) Sword Coast population data from 2024 D&D Pocket Expert

[Parmandur]

Just as another data point, here are the major trade routes of the Savage Frontier, with the only way to get out of the area reliably is the 32 day road from Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate:

 

[Hussar]

Just as another data point, here are the major trade routes of the Savage Frontier, with the only way to get out of the area reliably is the 32 day road from Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate:

View attachment 384092

See, right there, that's a problem. Why on earth would you ever take an overland route from Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate? 30 days overland - limited to what you can carry in a wagon, or 10 days by ship and carrying about 100 times as much as a wagon could. Yet, Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate is only listed by land route? This was the absolutely baffling part about Tyranny of Dragons (or Horde of the Dragon Queen, whichever). You wind up walking from (more or less) Baldur's Gate to Waterdeep. Takes like a freaking month to get there. Totally pointless.

All this stuff is just so bad. It's laughably bad.

But, in any case, the idea that Waterdeep and environs is 2 million is just ridiculous. But, instead of simply writing it off as a mistake, we have to have this endless debate about how to make it not ridiculous. Pulling out stuff from video games where they obviously were not paying much attention to the setting when they were creating the video game.

I mean, good grief, we have a 100+ pages of details of Waterdeep in Waterdeep Dragon Heist. NONE of what you guys are on about is mentioned there. There's NOTHING to suggest that Waterdeep is Post Rennaisance. Buy, hey, if that's what your Waterdeep looks like, I'm not going to stand in your way. Have at it. Me? I'd much rather simply ignore the stuff that makes very little sense than tie myself in knots trying to square circles.

 

[Parmandur]

But, in any case, the idea that Waterdeep and environs is 2 million is just ridiculous. But, instead of simply writing it off as a mistake

I agree, that is why I have written off basically everything published for the FR between ~1992-2014 as broadly a mistake.

See, right there, that's a problem. Why on earth would you ever take an overland route from Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate? 30 days overland - limited to what you can carry in a wagon, or 10 days by ship and carrying about 100 times as much as a wagon could. Yet, Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate is only listed by land route?

There is a sea route, that's just not mentioned in FR5 because it isn't super relevant for the Savage Frontier details. As to what makes rhe overland route attractive...fewer sea Monsters, and there is nowhere to stop for water or food for 600 miles at sea between Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate (that ia why it is called the "Sword Coast": no harborage for a huge stretch).

 

[Azzy]

Wow. Now we're "early modern"? Holy time jump batman. We've skipped forward about six or eight centuries while the rest of the Sword Coast is set about 1500 AD technology wise.

The Early Modern Period is roughly 1500–1700, so not really a time jump.

 

[Parmandur]

The Early Modern Period is roughly 1500–1700, so not really a time jump.

Used to be called "Renaissance", but that was academically way out of style already when I was in College 20 years ago...

 

[Parmandur]

Yet, Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate is only listed by land route? This was the absolutely baffling part about Tyranny of Dragons (or Horde of the Dragon Queen, whichever). You wind up walking from (more or less) Baldur's Gate to Waterdeep. Takes like a freaking month to get there. Totally pointless.

From The Hooded One om Candlekeep:

"Ah, here's one I can answer off the top of my head, from playing in Ed's home Realms campaign for over 30 years (yikes!): shipping rates by sea are reasonable for large bulk cargoes (such as grain), but pricey for small amounts (individual coffers and strongchests), which often go by land. There are also cargoes that usually go by land, because they are very heavy and because they readily get damaged by sea air (salty damp): metal weapons and tools and some wines and oils. Also live beasts and the large number of humans who fear drowning and hate seasickness more than they hate being bounced overland. Hence the regular caravan runs."

Another thing that struck after thinking about it a bit: yoy called trading with the Dalelands as "Eastward" from Waterdeep, but that's not quite accuraye: the Dalelands are due East from Baldur's Gate. Even the Moonsea is South of Waterdeep, let alone the rest of the Savage Frontier. Impassable desert aside there is actually a howling wilderness of "not much" on the other side between the Anaouroch and the Great Glacier. Everything flows South, towards the hub.

 

[Yaarel]

@Parmandur

I notice for both Forgotten Realms and for Greyhawk, you want to jettison decades of D&D development that was fleshing out the rest of the respective planets. You strongly prefer the initial regional settings, only, and to leave the planet agnostic.

I understand that both Gygax and Greenwood have been less thrilled with the directions that the planets went. But what are your motivations for an abrogation?

 

[TiQuinn]

Ok, sure, it goes to Waterdeep. I can understand that. Fair enough.

But, we're talking about trade east FROM Waterdeep. There's just no way that any major trade goes eastward from Waterdeep when you've got a major waterway not that far to the south in Baldur's Gate. So, all that stuff goes to Waterdeep, gets put on a boat and sent onwards to Baldur's Gate. Which means that Watrdeep isn't actually the hub. The hub is actually Baldur's Gate - at least for any trade going Eastward.

Now, to the West, it's the Moonshae islands and then, really, a whole lot of nothing. So, no trade is going west. Nothing particularly is going North because there's no people. How much can they actually buy? So, virtually all trade leaving Waterdeep goes south. And where does it go first? Baldur's Gate.

You can't be the "hub of trade" when you're on the far end of the trade route. The "hub of trade" has to be the choke point for multiple directions. That's why Constantinople, Florence, and various other hub of trade cities exist.

Nothing on this map is worth shipping any long distances.

And for as long as I’ve played FR, there really isn’t anything to the West. There’s the Moonshaes (which do not have a big population or major cities) and Evermeet (which is highly isolated). There’s Maztica but let’s not get into fantasy colonialism.

I don’t personally make trade routes a big deal of my campaigns so I’m fine with Waterdeep being the hub where everything East of it flows to (Silverymoon, Mithral Hall, Triboar, Evereska) but yeah if it’s gonna go anywhere from there it’s gotta go south and most of that is gonna go thru Baldur’s Gate.

 

[Parmandur]

@Parmandur

I notice for both Forgotten Realms and for Greyhawk, you want to jettison decades of D&D development that was fleshing out the rest of the respective planets. You strongly prefer the initial regional settings, only, and to leave the planet agnostic.

I understand that both Gygax and Greenwood have been less thrilled with the directions that the planets went. But what are your motivations for an abrogation?

Better flavor. Not because they are older, but because what you see in Folio/Box Greyhawk and FR before it went over the edge (fuzzy line, but by 1993 it was pretty much fully cooked) are Settings rooted firmly in actual play rather than meeting production needs for a corporation. Similar to the early Known World or, more recently, Exandria.

 

[Yaarel]

Better flavor. Not because they are older, but because what you see in Folio/Box Greyhawk and FR before it went over the edge (fuzzy line, but by 1993 it was pretty much fully cooked) are Settings rooted firmly in actual play rather than meeting production needs for a corporation. Similar to the early Known World or, more recently, Exandria.

I agree about starting local and expanding from there.

For example, I like the global perspective. Yet it is helpful to pick say three to five locales around the planet, and do deep dives there. Places in the distance can remain thumbnail sketches.

The intention of the world map is for the DM to pick a specific locale somewhere on the planet and make it their own, then flesh it out according to how the table develops it.

I notice the 2024 Forgotten Realms guide will pick five local settings, and seems to be doing deep dives. Probably this will be more helpful.

An other advantage of focusing on local settings, it is easy to plug them into other world settings.

Still, it helps to have a planet in mind.