Swordmage Warding vs. Armor of Faith

[jasin]

Armor of Faith grants +3 AC while not in heavy armour

Swordmage Warding grants +3 AC while not in heavy armour and with a free hand, +1 AC with both hands occupied, which turns off should you fall unconscious.

For a feat, you can enhance Armor of Faith by +1 per tier.

For a feat (if you have Dex 13), you can enhance Swordmage Warding by +1, but only while in cloth or leather (not hide).

AC is a more easily available resource for an avenger (a striker) than a swordmage (a defender). Am I missing something that makes this desirable?

 

[DracoSuave]

Different classes are different. Looking at a single class feature from each class in a vacuum while ignoring the entirety of the rest of the class is not a proper analysis.

Look through the power list for Avengers and find utility powers that negate hits done. Now look at the power lists for Rangers and Rogues and Sorcerers.

The Avenger has more Ac because he needs more Ac.

 

[jasin]

Look through the power list for Avengers and find utility powers that negate hits done. Now look at the power lists for Rangers and Rogues and Sorcerers.

The Avenger has more Ac because he needs more Ac.

I admit I can't think of any such avenger utility powers, but Bond of Retribution (attack avenger, deal damage to you ally), Avenging Echo (attack avenger, take damage), Executioner's Cloak (avenger becomes invisible) come to mind as powers that give the avenger survivability, in addition to their defender-like hp.

I'm not convinced the avenger needs that much more AC, not just more than the other classes with the same role, but also more than defenders.

 

[Cor Azer]

Swordmage also uses Intelligence as a primary ability, while the Avenger only has Dexterity and Intelligence as secondary - thus, the Swordmage is more likely to have a higher AC boosting stat, making up some of the difference as well.

 

[Garthanos]

So anybody think it would be a heinous crime if I, gimp armor of faith a bit, ie make it only work with cloth armor, for me that fits the fluff far better, ie the gods protect you if you rely on them and wear only cloth but if you went out of your way to learn the leather etc feats you are definitely not trusting in your faith to protect you.

I have a type in my game world that are a touch of divine mixed in with swordmage, they are called sword dancers since that is where I really want to use this I guess it is out of context with the Avenger. The at wills of the sword dancers are less magical than the sword mages but I figure I can do some of that with fluff. Sworddancers dont conjure there defense with there secondary hand... it is manifestation of faith and bravery (should I make it charisma based)..

 

[FrozenChrono]

Swordmage also uses Intelligence as a primary ability, while the Avenger only has Dexterity and Intelligence as secondary - thus, the Swordmage is more likely to have a higher AC boosting stat, making up some of the difference as well.

This is a big part of it.


Avengers can't cancel attacks, but they actually have a few ability's that give them damage reduction and temporary HP (like Channel Endurance and Blessing of Vengeance) Which can be very useful for Retribution builds.

Swordmage's do have a lot more of these kinds of damage reduction and attack canceling abilities, as well as defense enhancing stances. Plus they get the whole more HP and more healing surges thing. Avengers having an AC 1 or 2 points higher isn't that big of a deal.

There's no balance issue, though I'm a bit confused about why they did it this way as well.

 

[webrunner]

So anybody think it would be a heinous crime if I, gimp armor of faith a bit, ie make it only work with cloth armor, for me that fits the fluff far better, ie the gods protect you if you rely on them and wear only cloth but if you went out of your way to learn the leather etc feats you are definitely not trusting in your faith to protect you.

I can't see any reason why you would, without granting some other bonus.. Avenger needs more survivability than other strikers because they do a controllery-defendery job of either chasing down or sequestering enemies. They even have a power which explicitly makes it so the enemy can ONLY attack the avenger, period.

 

[jasin]

Swordmage's do have a lot more of these kinds of damage reduction and attack canceling abilities, as well as defense enhancing stances. Plus they get the whole more HP and more healing surges thing.

Unless you count the hp and surges from high Con for a shielding swordmage, swordmages have 1 hp more and 1 healing surge more; in addition to their defender-like AC, avengers get defender-like hp.

 

[Elric]

So anybody think it would be a heinous crime if I, gimp armor of faith a bit, ie make it only work with cloth armor, for me that fits the fluff far better, ie the gods protect you if you rely on them and wear only cloth but if you went out of your way to learn the leather etc feats you are definitely not trusting in your faith to protect you.

Seems reasonable. +3 AC (eventually) is a lot for a feat and it should come with some drawback. Otherwise, the Avenger can eventually get AC that's too high by taking Armor of Faith and Armor Proficiency feats. With this change, high level Avengers will tend to wear Cloth, unlike the other cloth-starting classes, who all have incentives to switch to Leather Armor because +2 AC is a major benefit for a single feat.

Edit- I meant the Improved Armor of faith feat, not the Armor of Faith ability. Sorry if that was unclear

 

[Herschel]

Armor of Faith grants +3 AC while not in heavy armour

Swordmage Warding grants +3 AC while not in heavy armour and with a free hand, +1 AC with both hands occupied, which turns off should you fall unconscious.

For a feat, you can enhance Armor of Faith by +1 per tier.

For a feat (if you have Dex 13), you can enhance Swordmage Warding by +1, but only while in cloth or leather (not hide).

AC is a more easily available resource for an avenger (a striker) than a swordmage (a defender). Am I missing something that makes this desirable?

Yes, a couple very basic points:

1. The Swordmage's primary stat is INT, an AC-boositng stat in light armor. One of the Avenger builds uses it as a secondary, the other uses Dex.

2. The Swordmage starts with the light armor proficiency, the Avenger does not.

3. The Avenger is often more accurate, but doesn't do the "big damage in a single strike" other strikers do. It's almost a secondary defender in it's abilities because it can keep a BBEG somewhat isolated and away from the rest of the party.