swords?

[Prince of Happiness]

Japanese steel is the only steel that was folded anywhere near so often due to its more quality. Every fold gets out impurities, but it's a case of diminishing returns. Unless you've got really crappy materials to start with (like the Japanese), it's not worth it after ...what ...a dozen I think? Just treat my post as qualitative, not quantitative.

I've just read a chapter in Richard Cohen's "By the Sword" this week about swordcrafting, and that, yes, it was about a dozen folds. Also, "...the alloy will stand a maximum of only about fifteen such procedures; thereafter blades begin to weaken..." (p.111). The gist I got out of the chapter is that folding was a process to trap oxidized "film" from iron between layers of heated metal.

I'm assuming this is to trap a layer of flexible metal between harder ones? And it would allow more durability after repeated sharpenings? Go through a soft layer to get to another hard layer? Or is it the "moronically contrived mental piddlings of a mouth breathing subhuman, ignorant of the true state of things which I, (insert expert's name here) am in complete possession of, and only state such when everyone else writes first, so I can insult and correct them?"

 

[reanjr]

Huh?

DB

Maybe I've not been exposed to alot of weapons catalogues, but mostly I see Carbon Steel, perhaps with a coating. Stainless steel raw materials alone costs upwards of $20/lb., while carbon steel costs like 1/10th of that.

 

[Drifter Bob]

Do a quick google search or check ebay real quick. You'll find stainless steel "swords" run about $10 these days. I couldn't tell you what the economics of that is, but thats the facts. Stainles steel knves are much cheaper too, you'll find they try to make it a selling point "440 stainless" but it's the cheapest end of the market.

Many of those chinese manufactuers have discovered the marketing value of "carbon steel" just recently though so you can find fake carbon steel ones for $30 or so, but only the kind which screw into the handle. A genuine full tang carbon steel sword replica runs about $80 for the bare minimum cheapest basic clumsy knock off. Decent ones start at about $300.

DB

 

[Janx]

I think y'all got hung up on whether stainless steel rusts or not.

I believe the point the original comment was making is the following:
if a sales guy hands you a sword and DOES not freak out if you touch the blade with your hand (or wipe it off right after he gets it back from you), then you probably are looking at a cheap sword.

 

[DouglasCole]

Stainless steel does resist oxidation, but contact with sodium chloride, sulfides or previously odidized metal can induce corrosion.

The chromium in stainless steel forms what is called a "passivating layer." it "rusts," which is to say forms its oxide, at the surface of the blade. This layer is mostly impermeable to additional passage of oxygen. It is also a harder coating, and its physical properties make it tenacious on the steel. The added chromium in the amounts present (11% or more is considered stainless) tend to interfere with the typical "martensitic transformation" of the iron/carbon mix, and thus stainless steels, on the whole, tend to be weaker and more brittle than their carbon counterparts.

In the presence of chlorine ions especially, chromium finds its true love, gets a divorce, and shacks up with the new ion, allowing the oxygen to penetrate into the iron core of the blade and cause rust. I got a very graphic taste of this with a stainless steel dive knife once.

dhc

 

[DouglasCole]

I've just read a chapter in Richard Cohen's "By the Sword" this week about swordcrafting, and that, yes, it was about a dozen folds. Also, "...the alloy will stand a maximum of only about fifteen such procedures; thereafter blades begin to weaken..." (p.111). The gist I got out of the chapter is that folding was a process to trap oxidized "film" from iron between layers of heated metal.

I think someone alluded to it before, but the reason that one folds steel in japanese style blades is primarily to homogenize it. The japanese forge produces very small chunks of steel (called tamahagane, I believe) of very differing carbon content. These chunks must be homogenized to even out the carbon content and also beat out the carbon inclusions that came along for the ride. The intent is to produce a sword with an overall carbon content not dissimilar from typical western swords.

Sometimes, the outer layer is wrapped around a lower carbon content (and thus more ductile and less hardenable) core. This adds resilience to the blade.

Both katanas and western swords can quench to very high hardness values (Rockwell C 60 to 64). Japanese smiths coat the sides and back of the blade with clay, to retard the heat loss and cause the back and sides to not quench to this hardness, making it softer, perhaps Rc 40-45 or so. Western swords were mostly through-hardened, but then tempered to a lower overall hardness.

This produced a supremely sharpenable, but very, very brittle, edge on the japanese sword. The smiths would put little streaks of clay into the sharp/hard zone as crack interruptors.
dhc

 

[hong]

Holy crap! It's Doug Cole!

So, um, Doug, what brings you to this here friendly d20 mailing list? I thought you'd be hot up for the impending GURPS new release?

 

[Krieg]

Sodium chloride, sulfur salts, hmm, sounds like perspiration to me...

Pretty much, although it is pretty dilute....not that I would leave sweaty prints on a stanless blade to test it. lol

The chromium in stainless steel forms what is called a "passivating layer." it "rusts," which is to say forms its oxide, at the surface of the blade. This layer is mostly impermeable to additional passage of oxygen. It is also a harder coating, and its physical properties make it tenacious on the steel. The added chromium in the amounts present (11% or more is considered stainless) tend to interfere with the typical "martensitic transformation" of the iron/carbon mix, and thus stainless steels, on the whole, tend to be weaker and more brittle than their carbon counterparts.

In the presence of chlorine ions especially, chromium finds its true love, gets a divorce, and shacks up with the new ion, allowing the oxygen to penetrate into the iron core of the blade and cause rust. I got a very graphic taste of this with a stainless steel dive knife once.

dhc

Well said, and a bit more detailed than I wanted to go. lol

I would point out that there are modern "stainless" alloys that are every bit as strong and flexible as their carbon steel counterparts. They just tend to be more expensive and difficult to work with.

I know you alluded to exceptions, just wanted to make a point to mention it.

The orthopedic grip is too good to use in combat.

/snip/...for brevity's sake.../snip/...

Orthopedic grips do what they are designed to do--work well in modern sport fencing.

While not an orthopedic grip per se, the traditional Tulwar pommel serves much the same purpose, and was used effectively in combat.

There are no absolutes...

 

[Someone]

There´s another important thing in the matter of balancing cutting blades -and tennis racquets-, and it´s the percussion point (I´m translating, don´t know it that´s the proper english word). If the blade hits with the percussion point, the handle -and hand and wrist- won´t notice the impact. I would explain it further, but I´m afraid I can´t without a good diagram.

 

[Ranger REG]

So if you improperly strike a sword upon your target, the impact would have reverberate to your hand and wrist, which could cause fatigue?

That means the grip of the sword is also important because it should absorb the impact transfer.