SWRPG: Episode III Game mechanical thoughts.

[Faraer]

The first part is symbolic, and probably not literal.

 

[AmorphousBlob]

The first part is symbolic, and probably not literal.

Ah, now I get it!

 

[Khorod]

I was throwing off an explanation for it, as the original poster liked that interpretation. I rather preferred the idea that Palpatine was dumping Force Points (darkly spent, of course) into his Lightning in an effort to punch through Windoo's defense.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Personally, I think the prequels rather strongly disprove the notion that gaining levels as a Dark Sider causes you to lose physical stats-- while Palpatine isn't particularly trim and fit, and Vader is mechanically supported, Darth Maul is in fine condition for a high-level darksider.

None of the classic EU darksiders lost their physical forms this way, either.

I also agree that Force Push/Strike should lose the automatic DSP.

I'm interested in seeing some kind of explanation for the way Palpatine uses Force Lightning, though. It's clearly far more complicated (and useful) than it is portrayed in the RPG materials.

One of the main problems with the RPG portrayals, in my opinion, isn't that the Dark Side/Light Side rules are so strict, it's that the main good guys are never portrayed as having a handful. Luke at the end of Episode VI sure as Hell had a few, even if he turned his back on the Dark Side.

 

[arkham618]

One of the main problems with the RPG portrayals, in my opinion, isn't that the Dark Side/Light Side rules are so strict, it's that the main good guys are never portrayed as having a handful. Luke at the end of Episode VI sure as Hell had a few, even if he turned his back on the Dark Side.

Hell, Luke casually used Force Grip on two Gamorrean guards at Jabba's palace in Episode VI, and they had not even attacked him -- only barred his way.

 

[wingsandsword]

Personally, I think the prequels rather strongly disprove the notion that gaining levels as a Dark Sider causes you to lose physical stats-- while Palpatine isn't particularly trim and fit, and Vader is mechanically supported, Darth Maul is in fine condition for a high-level darksider.

None of the classic EU darksiders lost their physical forms this way, either.

Well, it is a saving throw, which means you might lose a point, or maybe not. The idea of decaying from the dark side came from Palpatine's horrific appearance in the OT, and it seemed supported by some novels that were very thoroughly vetted by Lucasfilm, like Shadows of the Empire. From further out in the EU, Queen Amanoa and King Ommin of Onderon were Sith practitioners who were physically decaying from the Dark Side. It could be any physical ability score, and presumably losing one or two points in most characters would be written off by most as aging, and wouldn't have the withered look of Palpatine. Sometimes it happens, often it doesn't, and that kind of random chance (combined with a bit of skill) I think is reflected fine in the saving throws.

I also agree that Force Push/Strike should lose the automatic DSP.

I can see keeping it under some circumstances, which is why I made the option to effectively "set for stun". It seems pretty blatantly a Dark Side thing to strike somebody with possibly enough power to kill them (3d4 damage), and that makes it little different than just choking them. Using it to just knock somebody out though is apparently supported by the movies.

I'm interested in seeing some kind of explanation for the way Palpatine uses Force Lightning, though. It's clearly far more complicated (and useful) than it is portrayed in the RPG materials.

One of the main problems with the RPG portrayals, in my opinion, isn't that the Dark Side/Light Side rules are so strict, it's that the main good guys are never portrayed as having a handful. Luke at the end of Episode VI sure as Hell had a few, even if he turned his back on the Dark Side.

Luke Skywalker has always been depicted as having some Dark Side points by the end of Episode VI. In the old d6 RPG, he had 2 DSP's (and Dark Side Points were very serious business back then, you automatically went Dark at 6, and for every point you gained you had to roll 1d6, and if you rolled under it you went to the Dark Side immediately, which means for your 2nd point you had a 1:6 chance of falling).

The Rebellion Era Sourcebook for the d20 SWRPG gives Luke Skywalker 3 DSP's at that point, on page 150. Most arguments over the years I've seen give him some for his use of Force Choke (previously known at Telekinetic Kill) in Jabba's Palace, and of course for lashing out at Vader in the throne room.

Of course, Luke's flirtation with the Dark Side I think works better in the d20 SWRPG. In the d6 version, the Dark Empire Sourcebook gave him 6 DSP's when he was trying to get close to Palpatine to betray him, making him definiatively Dark Side, but only minimally. 6 DSP's for someone of Luke's Wisdom (12) is "Tainted" but not Dark, but has to make a save for every additional DSP or fall, and has enough DSP's to take some Sith features like the Sith Sorcery feat and most Dark Side classes (but not Sith Lord, note that nowhere in DE was Luke ever called a Sith, referred to once a Lord Skywalker by the Imperials, but nothing more).

The Jedi Academy Sourcebook for the old d6 SWRPG gives Luke 3 DSP's (set a year after Dark Empire), presumably still atoning. Even the d20 SWRPG RCR gives NJO era Luke 1 DSP.

Since Dark Side Points are supposed to measure evil (and Star Wars is about Good and Evil, and the Force is very clearly about that, with very little grey), I think it's presumed that the Good Guys either don't get DSP's (or rarely get them) or they atone for them with Force Points when they earn them, because they don't like the bad things they have done (while villains who don't atone don't really care or don't mind what they have done to earn a DSP).

 

[DnDChick]

After seeing Yoda and the Emperor's Move Object duel during which they threw senatorial podiums at each other, I altered the Move Object table to be based on size categories rather than just weight, and removed the restriction that using hurled objects as an attack was limited to Small and Medium-size objects.

Tiny or smaller: DC 5, Vitality 1; Damage 1
Small: DC 10; Vitality 1; Damage 1d3
Medium-size: DC 15; Vitallity: 2; Damage: 1d6
Large: DC 20; Vitality: 4; Damage: 2d6
Huge: DC 25; Vitality: 8; Damage: 4d6
Gargantuan: DC 30; Vitality: 16; Damage: 8d6
Colossal: DC 35; Vitality: 32; Damage: 16d6



As for the Force Jump ... I ignore the rule in the Hero's Guide. Since Move Object is just a move action, I ruled that you can just use it on yourself to "jump" great distances. I set the distance at 1 meter per point by which you exceed the DC, with a DC and Vitality cost set by your size category. Travel must be in a straight line. If you fail to travel the needed distance, you are allowed a DC 20 Reflex save to catch hold of any available projections to keep from falling (GM's call as to whether or not such projections are available).

Note that my rule regarding Force Jumping pretty much negates the need for the Force Flight feat, but it is a quick and easy fix for replicating all the Jedi jumping and acrobatics we see even the "weakest" Jedi performing in the books and movies.

 

[wingsandsword]

One more thing about game rules for Episode III. While I was at my FLGS, I idly looked in the back of the Revenge of the Sith miniatures scenario book, and was pleasantly surprised to find 6 pages of RPG stats in the back. Being the first actual mention of the RPG in the minis materials and the first stats, it was the first thing even vaguely backing up the "supporting the RPG"s through the minis line" bit. This made me happy at first, full stats for General Grievous, Episode III Chewbacca, Bail Organa, ect. I also like that they are using the rules for cybernetics from the Hero's Guide where you take penalties to Force Point rolls for cybernetics (like Anakin having a permanent -2 for his arm, while Grievous suffers a -10 for his whole-body cyborging).

Only one thing in the thing upset me, and it upset me a lot, the new official Episode III stats of Anakin Skywalker at the beginning of the movie: Fringer 1/Jedi Guardian 11. I would call it Fringer 1/Jedi Guardian 8 personally.

Now, I have three real problems with him having 11 Jedi levels at that point:

1. The Episode IV write-up of Darth Vader has him being Fringer 1/Jedi Guardian 11/Sith Lord 6. However, if he's Frg 1/JG 11 at Episode III, he can't take Sith Lord levels, he doesn't meet almost any of the prerequisites! Knowledge (Sith Lore) 8 Ranks? Nope. Speak Sith & Read/Write Sith? Nope. 8 total ranks Dark Side skills? Nope. It would take him 3 levels just to earn those prereqs with his 14 Intelligence. If he had 8 JG levels in Ep III, he could earn 3 more JG levels, have the prereqs for Sith Lord and then be Frg 1/JG 11/Sith Lord 6 by Yavin.

2. He earned 6 levels over the three year course of the Clone Wars? No movie or EU character anywhere in Star Wars levels up anywhere near that fast. The fastest was Luke got getting 7 levels of JG in the 4 years of the Galactic Civil War, and if you actually look at most characters, they get a level every year or two when in their lower levels. It just seems awfully fast to be levelling up compared to everyone else around him.

3. He apparently earned about 4 of those levels in 6 months too. By the rest of the EU, he recieved his rank of Jedi Knight only about 6 months before the events of Ep. III, and the decision was made shortly before that but they were delayed in formally promoting him. If you reach Jedi Knight at 7th Jedi level, even assuming a bit of a delay so he might be close to 8th level by the time it's actually recognized, being 11th Jedi level and having been formally knighted only a few months ago is implausible given the rates of character progression seen everywhere else.

I almost get the feeling that they just looked at his Episode IV stats, stripped off the Sith Lord levels and all the dark side and sith related skills, without thinking it through.

 

[DnDChick]

There are RPG stats for the miniatures on the WotC website too.

Characters from the Clone Wars:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050519a

The classic Bounty Hunters of ESB
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050120a

 

[AmorphousBlob]

There are RPG stats for the miniatures on the WotC website too.

Characters from the Clone Wars:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050519a

The classic Bounty Hunters of ESB
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050120a

Sweet! I'm so going to throw IG-88 at my PCs when they're high enough level. The best thing about IG-88 is that, since he copied himself multiple times, killing him can easily be ruled as having no effect on the continuity whatsoever