SWSE -Making the Dark Side more tempting

[theredrobedwizard]

Yeah, I'm kinda in the other camp on this one. In most SW games, there's way too many DSPs handed out. I understand that the Dark Side is a real threat to most Force Sensitives, but getting 1 or 2 DSPs for lying? That's just ridiculous.

-TRRW

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Have you seen the movies, though? It seems to be less harsh for non-Force-Users, but in the Force, if you can fall just getting UPSET ... Anger and Fear lead to the Dark Side.

--fje

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Have you seen the movies, though? It seems to be less harsh for non-Force-Users, but in the Force, if you can fall just getting UPSET ... Anger and Fear lead to the Dark Side.

--fje

Well, lying is not the same as being upset. So the important question is to decide what kind of action is really "dark".

I think acting out of fear or anger (and hurting someone in the process) is something that warrants Dark Side points. Also would Hurting someone out of pure egoismn or for fun.

 

[Nifft]

I understand that the Dark Side is a real threat to most Force Sensitives, but getting 1 or 2 DSPs for lying?

"These are not the droids you are looking for." Ridiculous indeed.

Jedi != Paladin, people! There are some unchivalrous things you can do which ought not give you a Dark Side point. Lying is one of 'em.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Have you seen the movies, though? It seems to be less harsh for non-Force-Users, but in the Force, if you can fall just getting UPSET ... Anger and Fear lead to the Dark Side.

--fje

No, anger and fear are just the gateway drugs. It's acting in self-interest that actually leads to people falling.

 

[ZSutherland]

"These are not the droids you are looking for." Ridiculous indeed.

Jedi != Paladin, people! There are some unchivalrous things you can do which ought not give you a Dark Side point. Lying is one of 'em.

Cheers, -- N

QFT. Jedi are fully within their rights to do a great many things that would make a paladin into a featless fighter, and vice versa. Any DM who forgets this needs to go back and read the flavor-text of the Force chapter in RCR again. There are certainly some similarities, and I can see where the confusion arises, but they are not the same.

Both Paladin's and Jedi can and will kill to protect the innocent, neither can seek vengance, etc. The stark difference, though, is that a Jedi is "not a moral creature." The Jedi's actions must be within accordance with the will of the Force, not the strictures of a code of conduct. A Paladin may draw strength from those emotions that we generally consider positive, such as courage, love, and honor. The Jedi must avoid these emotions just as assiduously as he avoids anger, fear, and hatred, because they cause him to focus on -his- wants and desires over the will of the Force. That is why selfish action is what leads to the Dark Side. Remember, Anakin's first step down the path to the Dark Side was not anger or fear or hatred. It was love.

 

[Henry]

The Jedi must avoid these emotions just as assiduously as he avoids anger, fear, and hatred, because they cause him to focus on -his- wants and desires over the will of the Force. That is why selfish action is what leads to the Dark Side. Remember, Anakin's first step down the path to the Dark Side was not anger or fear or hatred. It was love.

I keep recalling that story from one of the West End Games supplements about the Jedi doing negotiations with a cannibal culture that ate a dead friend of his. A paladin may well shrink from this kind of thing, but a Jedi might well see it as just one way of life sustaining itself.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I should have been a bit more clear. I wasn't replying specifically to the bit about lying, but the bit about Dark Side points being given out left and right.

I.E., it seems, from the movies, that all kinds of things force the balance and that Jedi are required to be ever-vigilant to keep from falling, because even something like acting through emotion will cause a fall.

Functionally, though, that's hard to keep on keel ... how do you determine what is self-interest and what isn't? Isn't most things a character does in self-interest, at least self-interest of the player?

For instance, I don't think "lying" would be a Dark Side act, if it were in furtherance of the Force or a greater goal ... but lying for self-gain WOULD be.

Perhaps self-interest should be the decider ... but, again, hard to judge. The player is looking for XP and manufacturing a reason to get in a fight in the game, perhaps, but desires to categorize it as protecting the innocent or somesuch.

It's a "Don't be a dink" kind of thing, really hard to make into a finite rule system.

--fje

 

[ZSutherland]

Agreed, Heap.

The line is hard to draw for a DM since the difference is so internal, but I think the guidelines given in the Force chapter are a decent springboard. I haven't run much Star Wars (mostly because my players threatened to revolt against the RCR vehicle rules and it just feels like D&D in space if you can't have a star-fighter battle), but my general rule of thumb would be "Unless it's blatantly deserving of a DSP (dark-side force power use, calling on the Dark Side when using a Force Point, etc.), see if it becomes a pattern of behavoir and give the player a warning before handing out the point. "Hey John, I notice your Jedi's awfully quick to ignite that lightsaber and go to work without any attempt at negotiation. Careful."

That assumes you want to run a rather high heroics game where falling to the Dark Side is a possibility, but would require some work on the part of the player. I can see the appeal of a "short" grim campaign where awarding DSPs is like losing Sanity in Cthulu, and the question isn't if you will fall but when.