SWSE: Use the Force modification

[comrade raoul]

Basically, I think Use the Force would work a lot better if it had a steeper progression--if it scaled with a character's heroic level, like attacks and defenses, rather than half a character's heroic level plus a large flat bonus, like skills.

The basic reasoning is that Force users should always be able to use the Force against equally capable opponents with more or less the same effectiveness, regardless of their current level. Here's the rationale in more detail (behind the block, for those who might not need it or want to cut to the crunch):[sblock]While (I think) I understand why the Use the Force is a skill in Saga Edition (it's a nifty bit of streamlining), I think its status as a skill creates more problems than it solves. The big problem is that Use the Force is largely unique among skills by being used against an opponent's attack roll (for the Jedi defensive talents) or defense bonuses (for lots of Force powers)--but, because training in a skill and the Skill Focus feat give large, flat bonuses, skill bonuses tend to start higher but increase more slowly as characters advance than attack or defense bonuses. This is fine for most skills--it's nice for the relative advantage trained users have over untrained ones to be relatively constant over a character's life.

I think this is much less fine for Use the Force, however. Because it means that offensive and defensive Force abilities scale at a different rate from a character's attacks and defenses, it means that combative powers and talents are disproportionately effective at low levels rather than high levels, rather than staying comparably effective throughout a character's life.

Roughly, this means that a young padawan can effortlessly deflect attacks from typical stormtroopers and toss them about with ease, but a Jedi Master's attempts to use the Force against an equally skilled adversary are generally real longshots. In particular, A typical 3rd-level Jedi might have a Use the Force bonus of +13--given training, Skill Focus, and a 14 Charisma--which is probably going to be really powerful against an adversary's +6 or so attack bonus or, say, a 15 Will Defense. But by 13th level, that Jedi's bonus probably has only increased to +18 or so (a little more if the character keeps working on his or her Charisma), while she's dealing with attacks in the twenties and defenses in the high twenties and low thirties.

The way to fix this is to model Use the Force differently from other skills--basically, not to treat it as a skill at all--and allow it to advance, like attacks and defenses, directly according to a character's level.[/sblock]We can do this by changing some relevant feats, as follows. Note that all feats treat Use the Force as a separate sort of ability, rather than a skill. Thus, Force Study I replies Skill Training (Use the Force), and Force Study II and Force Study III combine to replace Skill Focus (Use the Force). (Note that Skill Focus (Use the Force) is essentially split into two feats, since it's potentially so powerful.)

The result is that the Force functions like a skill without being a skill, and with (as above) an appropriately steeper progression. Thus:

Force Sensitivity
You are Force-sensitive, allowing you to call on the Force and draw on its powers.
Prerequisite: Cannot be a droid.
Benefit: You can make Use the Force checks to search your feelings, sense surroundings, or use telepathy (see page 77). To make a Use the Force check, roll a d20 and apply your Charisma modifier, then compare the result to the relevant DC. In addition, whenever you gain a new talent, you have the option of selecting a Force talent instead.

Force Study I
You benefit from continued training with the Force, allowing you to use it more effectively and apply it in a number of additional ways.
Prerequisite: Force Sensitivity.
Benefit: You gain a bonus on Use the Force checks equal to your character level. In addition, you can make Use the Force checks to activate a Force power, move a light object, or sense the Force (see page 77).

Force Study II
You are particularly skilled at using the Force.
Prerequisite: Force Sensitivity, Force Study I.
Benefit: You gain a +2 competence bonus on Use the Force checks.

Force Study III
You are exceptionally skilled at using the Force.
Prerequisite: Force Sensitivity, Force Study I, Force Study II.
Benefit: You gain a +5 competence bonus on Use the Force checks. Because this bonus and the bonus from Force Study II are both competence bonuses, they do not stack: the bonus from this feat supercedes the prior one. However, it still stacks with the bonus from your character level, giving you a total bonus equal to your character level + 5.

Since being "trained in the Use the Force skill" no longer makes sense, the Force Training feat should now require Force Study I as an additional prerequisite. The only other rule this should change are Jedi starting abilities and bonus feats, as follows:

• Jedi add Force Study I to their list of starting feats.
• A Jedi starts with a number of trained skills equal to only 1 + their Int modifier (since they're effectively now trained in Use the Force by default).
• Add Force Study II and Force Study III to a Jedi's list of available bonus feats.

Otherwise, everything else should work as written. Note that bonuses that apply to skill checks in general (like the scoundrel's Fool's Luck talent) don't apply to Use the Force checks. Talents that allow Jedi to replace other skills with Use the Force work as normal, which means, like other applications of Use the Force, they're probably weaker at low levels but stronger at high levels. (Are talents like Force Intuition, Force Perception, and Force Pilot even worth taking at all at low levels? Maybe--if your key ability for the relevant skill isn't that great or if you're not even trained in the skill, or if you have a really high Charisma or if you've taken Force Study II or III relatively early. At high levels, though, you get a result that, I think, makes more sense--you can draw on the Force to have perceptive or diplomatic abilities that really stand out. So the talents become a little more complicated than just skill substitutions.)

 

[Bagpuss]

I would change Force Sensitivity to read

"To make a Use the Force check, roll a d20 and apply your Charisma modifier plus half your character level (rounded down), then compare the result to the relevant DC."

So that folks with Force Sensitivity see some improvement when levelling up. At the moment it looks about a useful as Dodge.

I would then rephrase Force Study I to replace the check standard check with d20 and apply Charisma modifier plus your character level.

 

[comrade raoul]

Thanks for the feedback, sir!

I think you're basically right. But I liked the simplicity of the progression--from just the Charisma bonus to the character level bonus to the competence bonuses--and I'm not convinced the benefit of the switch justifies the added complexity. (It also, again, emphasizes that Use the Force isn't really a skill.) Since the only people with Force Sensitivity who don't have Force Study I didn't start as Jedi, you have to ask what they'll do with Force Sensitivity. They can still use it to qualify for feats like Force Boon or Strong in the Force, or to pick talents that don't really depend on Use the Force checks, like Equilibrium. If they plan on being serious Force users, they'll get Force Study I soon enough anyway, making the point moot.

 

[Bagpuss]

I'd just like to add that I think you are fixing a problem that isn't really there. While what you have said (about Use the Force, being good against low level, but less effective at high level) is true, I see it more as a feature of the setting.

In Star Wars you tend to see Jedi using Deflect or Force Slam and the like against low level opponents like battle droids and stormtroppers. When they actually face a high level opponent these abilities either aren't used (probably because they know they won't succeed) or when they are used they aren't effective and then they resort to lightsaber dueling.

I know this is counter intuitive to what we are use to in D20, but I think it reflect the Star Wars genre well.

 

[comrade raoul]

That makes sense--I'll have to think about that.

I'm mostly worried about low-level Jedi, to be honest--I'm okay with Jedi Knights only really being able to mind-trick stormtroopers, but I'm much less sanguine about third-level padawans using Move Object to hurl the stormtroopers around rooms. And remember in the films most of the Jedi we see in the films are mid-to-high level ones--Obi Wan in Episode I is probably the least major experienced Jedi (not counting Luke, who doesn't rely primarily on his Force abilities until Return of the Jedi) in them--and even if they're able to dominate mooks with the Force, it's not clear that other ones are.

I also at least want Block, Deflect, and Redirect to stay comparably useful throughout a character's life, which I think the modifications facilitate.

Otherwise, though, I think you're right. Hmm.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

The biggest source of concern I think is more to do with Skill Focus (UtF) providing such a huge benefit and being available as early as 1st level for a Human Jedi, than the skill system in place for Use the Force. There's been a lot of outcry on the WotC boards about how taking Skill Focus (UtF) is pretty much a given for any Force-using build. But then again it's the same issue for any opposed skill at lower levels.

A 1st level character with Skill Focus (Deception) and a decent Charisma score is going to have an easy time hoodwinking/feinting NPCs of a similarily low level, and can do so multiple times unlike the Force-user who had to spend a two feats (Skill Focus and Force Training) to pull off a similar effect with the mind trick power. Now imagine it's a Twi'lek, who not only gets a bonus to their Charisma score, but has the option to re-roll their Deception check if they think the first result is too low.

I think the reason Use the Force gets so much attention is the sheer versatility of the skill, when someone with Skill Focus & trained in Deception or Persuasion can be so much more prone to de-railing a GM's carefully crafted scenario, especially if they get a species re-roll ability.

 

[theredrobedwizard]

That's the whole point of the new skill system; 1st level characters aren't f****** useless anymore. Your first level character is a competent person with something resembling a chance of survival. This makes it much easier to make low level NPCs that are good in their field. Sure, they won't ever be as good as the Big Damn Heroes, but they're better than most.

-TRRW