Sympathy for the Players

[Tom Cashel]

My players are getting splattered all over the place every time we play. Three PCs and one pseudodragon companion died last session. I know that I run a challenging game, but the CRs haven't ever been out of hand for their level. Plus, they've always had the benefit of five or six PCs rather than the four for which the CR system is "calibrated" (more or less).

I blame a lot of the carnage on the players' one and only plan: "GET 'EM." Now, we all know that at some point, you have to get 'em. I mean, why bother going after the baddies if you're not going to get 'em? But no matter how many times I mention guile, trickery, bluffing, ambushes, drawing out the enemy, fighting the battle on your own terms, etc. etc., they nod and say "yeah" and then charge into the next encounter to get their clocks cleaned.

Can anyone recommend a site or sites (links, please!) that contain(s) some general advice to players of 3E? I'd send them here to ask for advice, but I don't want them to have specific info about the module we're currently running. Alternately, if you have some helpful tips you'd like to post here, I will convey them to my PCs.

Thanks in advance, folks.

The module I'm running is City of the Spider Queen, by the way. Before you shout "A-HA!" let me assure you that I warned them many times that this module is commonly referred to as a 'meatgrinder,' and that they would need to be crafty and clever to have a chance of succeeding. They wanted a mega-module, and I wasn't into RttToEE, so there you go.

 

[alsih2o]

please allow me to introduce myself, i am a p.c. of wealth and taste.....

 

[kengar]

Sounds like tough love to me.

Seriously though, if it's getting really bad, maybe you could insert a "helpful" NPC. Someone who might in-game make a few suggestions to the party before they charge into a bloodbath.

 

[cthuluftaghn]

One not-so-subtle method is to use tactics against them that you think would be helpful for them to learn and understand... so when they get slaughtered, they can see how effective they are. Explain them as you do them.

For example: "The orc with the hairy chin jumps up on the crate to your left, thus giving him a +1 height advantage. The sly looking half-orc assassin tucks and rolls (roll a Tumble check) and avoids your attack of opportunity to position himself to your right. He now flanks you with the orc on the crate, and both enemies get an additional +2 flanking bonus. (roll attacks, and add up the bonuses out loud). The orc on the crate smacks you with his axe for 7 damage. The half-orc jabs you in the ribs with his sword, doing 5 damage... plus, since he has you flanked and he has levels as a Rogue (roll more dice), he does another 8 points for a successful Sneak Attack. You fall to the floor, unconscious and bleeding."

At this point, the unexperienced combateer is likely to say... "Hey! How'd he do that again? What just happened... how did I get dropped by a friggin pair of orcs?!" You have just given an effective lesson in combat tactics.

 

[Harlock]

One not-so-subtle method is to use tactics against them that you think would be helpful for them to learn and understand... so when they get slaughtered, they can see how effective they are. Explain them as you do them.

For example: "The orc with the hairy chin jumps up on the crate to your left, thus giving him a +1 height advantage. The sly looking half-orc assassin tucks and rolls (roll a Tumble check) and avoids your attack of opportunity to position himself to your right. He now flanks you with the orc on the crate, and both enemies get an additional +2 flanking bonus. (roll attacks, and add up the bonuses out loud). The orc on the crate smacks you with his axe for 7 damage. The half-orc jabs you in the ribs with his sword, doing 5 damage... plus, since he has you flanked and he has levels as a Rogue (roll more dice), he does another 8 points for a successful Sneak Attack. You fall to the floor, unconscious and bleeding."

At this point, the unexperienced combateer is likely to say... "Hey! How'd he do that again? What just happened... how did I get dropped by a friggin pair of orcs?!" You have just given an effective lesson in combat tactics.

Or they are also likely to say, "Hey! How come you kill us so much? Your game isn't fun. You're a jerk and I'm not gaming with you anymore." You have just been given a lesson in ineffective DMing...

I'm not trying to pick on cthuluftaghn or anything, and I apologize for using you as an example, but this one is a tough call. Tom has said the players are being told to play it strategically and they are not. He's also said they keep getting slaughtered every game. Normally I'd suggest a sit down with the players so you could talk it out. Ask what tactics they know about. Share ideas on tactics you know about. Explain cover around a corner, AC bonuses against ranged weapons for kneeling, backing into the corner when a rogue is on them to prevent flanking, etc. Make sure they understand what those tactics are. From Tom's description he said, "But no matter how many times I mention guile, trickery, bluffing, ambushes, drawing out the enemy, fighting the battle on your own terms, etc. etc., they nod and say "yeah" and then charge into the next encounter to get their clocks cleaned." Maybe if this is being done during a game they are too shy or prideful to admit that they don't really understand these tactics. A one on one or a pregame feedback session may be of immense value to you as a DM as they share their ideas and for them as you share your ideas. Or maybe the players are simply used to high death rates and this seems normal to them... some probing could help answer some of the questions. As for site on tactics, most of the tactics I have seen are smackdowns, which ruin a game for me personally, so I suggest articles from Dragon, re-reading the Combat section of the PH, and reading the official FAQ from WotC. The FAQ is loaded with great information and ideas.

Tom, best o luk, and if it is at all possible, you may want to provide your players with a semi anonymous way to give you feedback and/or for you to ask questions about their knowledge. You can do this by setting up an email address with password only the players know so they could ask you, or byhaving them bring in questions written or types with no signature... just dreaming here, but worth a shot if it's real bad. Also, are you prepared for the worst case scenario: the players like gaming this way? If that's the case then you still have options but my number one theory of DMing is to give my players the game they want. You find a median that guages all their interests with combat, tactics, roleplaying, etc. Again, good luck, and do keep us updated.

 

[cnath.rm]

Very well done example

One not-so-subtle method is to use tactics against them that you think would be helpful for them to learn and understand... so when they get slaughtered, they can see how effective they are. Explain them as you do them.

Very sweet example!!

There used to be a set of articles on the Wizard's site explaining some of the different rules and abilities through examples of play,
I don't have the link anymore but something like that, or a website collecting excellent examples such at cthuluftaghn's above would be both educational and interesting to read.

 

[mmu1]

I'd suggest looking for the other thread I started about the module you're running, ("Annoyed with...") it had some good suggestions...

Although it sounds to me like the problem here isn't that the players aren't capable of a certain style of play, but that they just enjoy playing things their way, and are unlikely to change their style.

I had similar problems as you did - I warned the players over and over about what kind of campaign they were going into (they had the benefit of creating new characters, too), and ended up with a party of 6 that still didn't have all the standard classes covered, an arcane caster that didn't take Darkvision as one of his spells known, and a cleric of Tempus that was determined to pretend he was a fighter, and wasted half of his spells on himself for a marginal boost in combat effectiveness. All that, and a dismaying tendency to charge into things head-on. (interspersed with short stretches of paranoia during which they'd check every floor tile, before reverting back to their SOP when things seemed to get safe again.)

This module just isn't compatible with that style of play at all... The most you can do is spread out some of the encounters a bit (so that if the players charge into something, three other groups of enemies don't come running), but there are only so many places you can do that. Unless your players enjoy spending most of the session scrying and planning, they'll just keep on getting slaughtered.

 

[CCamfield]

Although it sounds to me like the problem here isn't that the players aren't capable of a certain style of play, but that they just enjoy playing things their way, and are unlikely to change their style.

That certainly seems possible, and if they aren't interested in changing their style, it might be a good idea to look for another module...

 

[alsih2o]

sympathy for the players-

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a lich of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith
And I was 'round when ol' drizzt
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that tenser
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

I stuck around St. Petersberg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the Czar and his ministers
as mordenkainen screamed in vain

I made a tank
Held a general's rank
When the Blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
What's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah

I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the Gods they made

I shouted out
"Who killed the zombies?"
When after all
It was you and me

Let me please introduce myself
I'm a lich of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadors
Who get killed before they reached Bombay

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's confusing you
Is just the nature of my game

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lichifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, um yeah

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, um baby, get down

Woo, who
Oh yeah, get on down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!

Tell me baby, what's my name
Tell me honey, baby guess my name
Tell me baby, what's my name
I tell you one time, you're to blame

Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Oh, yeah

What's my name
Tell me, baby, what's my name
Tell me, sweetie, what's my name

Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Oh, yeah

 

[Tom Cashel]

I'd suggest looking for the other thread I started about the module you're running, ("Annoyed with...") it had some good suggestions...

LOL. I keep posting in the "Running CotSQ" and waiting for you to respond, mmu1.

I just posted a more complete account of our last game session, if you're interested.

To clarify: I think that, to some extent, they have gotten used to PC death. For a while they'd get really broken up over it, but then (all of a sudden) they all made back-up characters and stopped caring about dying. I was hoping they'd reach the middle ground...

We've been playing 3E for a couple years now; they've all read the PHb multiple times, and they have bursts of inspired gaming. I've had many out-of-game conversations with them, in which I've told them that, as a DM, I reward creative play. I love it when PCs come up with an idea that isn't covered or suggested by the module/rulebooks, or when they try to bluff their way through.

I'd like them to imagine the situation, and really think to themselves, "What would my character do here, to ensure both success and survival?" But inexplicably, they fall back on the tried and true, "Well, that's the next encounter in the module so I guess we'd better fight."

I have no problem whatsoever with killing them again and again (I'm an old-school rat bastard), but by the same token, I'd like to see them have one of those encounters where they act as a team and wipe the floor with the opposition. Not due to lucky dice, but due to their own planning/strategy/execution. I may be a magnificent bastard, but I'd like to see them do well.