Sympathy for the Players

[Mark]

I mean, why bother going after the baddies if you're not going to get 'em? [/SIZE]

It's funny cause it's true...

Alternately, if you have some helpful tips you'd like to post here, I will convey them to my PCs.

More for you than for the players, Tom. Send them out to capture some things. Bad guys, animals, beasts, etc. When they capture, rather than kill, bad guys, reward them with information and extra information about hidden treasures that they wouldn't have found if they had just killed the bad guy and gathered whatever was apparent. Make sure a nearby NPC points out how smart they were to capture and question the bad guy to gain the extra treasure.


(btw, Good one, Clay! )

 

[Spatula]

Man, there's a lot of ranger/rogues in that party. And no straight-up meatshields. My suggestion to your players would be, if they want to rush in and take things head-on, get some characters that can take some punishment.

 

[Black Omega]

It can't hurt if there is someone acting as combat leader. Then even if others aren't thinking tactics much, that person can offer suggestions. Depends alot on the group though.

 

[William Ronald]

Tom: A heart-to-heart talk with the players is a tactic that you have tried and has so far failed.

Maybe having some of the PCs mentors talk to the characters might work. Or have them observe how an experienced group that uses good tactics works. (Possibly the players might get the hint when they see characters that their characters admire using the tactics that they ignore.)

I think that the desire to change must come from the players. So, possibly try any steps to show them how the tactics they ignore would work. Part of the problem that beginning gamers have is that they do not see such tactics used much in fiction or the movies. Maybe find a movie that shows good tactics put into use. (Heck, it sounds like Rambo used better tactics than your players, Tom. )

I would also recommend the Art of War by Sun Tzu, which has a wealth of advice on strategy for general warfare. (Several editions have good background materials for an Oriental Adventures campaign.) Good strategies can defeat superior numbers. A keen mind can do more harm to an enemy than a keen blade.

For example, here is a strategy that Saladin used against the Crusaders. With a 12,000 man army he lured the Crusaders out of Jerusalem onto a hill with tall grasses. In addition to fighting the heat of the countryside, Saladin ordered his men to set fire to the grass surrounding the crusaders. Thus, the Crusaders faced the heat of the region, the heat of the fire, and the arrows raining down upon them.


Black Omega: Good to see you on the boards! A combat leader can help the players a lot. Heck, maybe even an NPC doing this for the players for one or two sessions might show them the difference between fighting with tactics and without tactics. (The players are suffering because of poor tactics. Normally, I do not recommend resorting to NPC solutions. However, the players are free to ignore or follow the NPC's suggestions. It seems Tom's group needs desperate measures.)

 

[ced1106]

One random thought is a town adventure:

* Tavern brawls: Tactics? What tactics? Everyone's drunk and blowing off steam. Players can rely upon creativity (improvised weapons, jumping off tablees, swinging from support beams) for variety, rather than tactics.

* Town guards: Sure, charge them. Town guards are either poorly trained conscripts, who don't know tactics, or highly trained militiamen, who are high enough level to beat PC butt, tactics or none.

Unfortunately, it looks like combat style has the same problems as roleplaying style. If your players don't care for tactics, you're going to have to accept it and tailor the adventure appropriately.

Besides, the D&D miniatures game is coming out soon! Plenty of tactics there, lol.


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

 

[cnath.rm]

Re: Re: Very well done example

Are you referring to Gamestoppers?

Yep, that would indeed be the one.

 

[Zarthon]

I have the same problem with my players (In fact about two weeks ago the Bard made up a song about killing monsters and taking their stuff...), I have tried to get away from the Hack & Slash but the group as a whole want combat.

I even tried getting another campaign started with different characters which was geared towards roleplaying instead of rollplaying and I though I would play a PC and get a friend to DM, I mistaking thought I could change my groups actions... Needless to say they where not too excited about the fact that most of the dice rolled where for Diplomacy, Listen, Pick Pockets, Decipher Script, etc... (in otherwords not much combat). That game died when the players stopped coming to it

So I started up the other game again, and reinforced the fact that the players where going to have to start fighting smart if they wanted to survive Nightfang Spire.

Too date we have played 4 sessions of Nightfang Spire and the number of PC deaths has been 2 killed in the first session and 1 killed every session thereafter, with (if they dont fall back from their current position) a very hot TPK following shortly

Anyway the way I see it, it is the DM's responsability to give his/her group what they want thereby keeping them happy and coming back for more

 

[muhcashin]

ECL -4

Players lacking of strategy and/or tactics should have their characters levels lowered by 2 or 3. Just like being drow get an ECL +2, dumb players get a ECL -2. They gain XP as if they were 2 levels lower.

Just a joke. Seriously, if you use published adventures often, and if you rely on what they say on the cover (for 10th level characters, etc, ...) then boost that number up a notch or two to see whether your characters are up to the challenge.

The DMG says that an encounter level equal to the party's average level should use up about 1/5th of their ressources. (something like that) Well, change that to 1/3rd or something.

Same thing goes when you choose monsters.

 

[S'mon]

Re: ECL -4

Players lacking of strategy and/or tactics should have their characters levels lowered by 2 or 3. Just like being drow get an ECL +2, dumb players get a ECL -2. They gain XP as if they were 2 levels lower.

Just a joke. Seriously, if you use published adventures often, and if you rely on what they say on the cover (for 10th level characters, etc, ...) then boost that number up a notch or two to see whether your characters are up to the challenge.

The DMG says that an encounter level equal to the party's average level should use up about 1/5th of their ressources. (something like that) Well, change that to 1/3rd or something.

Same thing goes when you choose monsters.

I don't think you should reward them for their stupidity by giving them extra XP, but treating them as 2 levels lower for EL purposes (NOT for xp) would allow them to survive more fights. They'll level up half as fast, as the fights will be easier.