"Syndrome" Syndrome: or the Fallacy of "Special"

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Perhaps what really can be taken away from all this is that people can try their hardest to make something they think will be great — and that a lot of people end up liking — but they can still stumble in the execution.

 

[Marius Delphus]

I disagree. They had different choices. A lot of players do not enjoy a class with heavy resource management. They prefer a simple rather than complex character.

This is a meaningful choice.

These players probably prefer an earlier edition to 4E, then.

In any event, I was speaking of meaningful choices during combat, not at character creation. When the wizard player hems and haws over his spell list trying to decide which of his 5 encounter-winning options to use (and which to save for later), while the fighter's only meaningful decision is which opponent to hit next, I'm saying the wizard's play experience could be viewed as "more special."

Again, it is all about style of play. In the current edition, everyone has to manage resources. The style has been standardized. This has advantages, but also serious flaws as the game becomes less accessible to varied personalities.

I don't deny that some players aren't happy with 4E.

It has nothing to do with cheating.

In a game where either (1) the wizard can end the encounter in one fell swoop or (2) the wizard can save his spell but the rest of the characters must take a few rounds to achieve the same end, IMO the other players could be excused for thinking the wizard is cheating just a bit. In a game where the CODzilla barrels through a fight and achieves the same thing all the other melee characters, combined, achieved (and in the case of the druid, takes up nearly as much game time as all the other melee characters, combined), and afterwards heals the other melee characters to boot, IMO the other players could be excused for thinking the CODzilla is a bit of a cheat.

 

[Ourph]

I'd revise this slightly by saying that it's not about holding Dash back in the foot race; it's about Dash learning to use his gifts to benefit the team (his family).

To take this a step further, it's about illustrating that "being special" doesn't necessarily equate to "always having the spotlight on you". Dash is special even if he doesn't get to use his gift to win every sporting event in his school. The 4e Wizard is special even if he doesn't get to dominate the game past 10th level and make every other class basically superfluous to the success of the team.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I am sure that there is an argument here, but all I see is confusion. Are you just wanting to attack 3.5 or praise 4e? Or both? I found your stream of consciousness here difficult to follow.

sorry if I was not clear, but yes I feel 4e is better then 3e, how ever I am currently playing both. So take that for what you will. I mean that the phrase and the movie doesn't apply to 4e though, atleast not any mor ehten it did to any other edtion...

like I said if only 30% of the population has claasses, and the rest are farmers and bakers, and fishermen, and ect ect ect then every class is special, but not everyone, just everyone of the main stars...

IMO, previous editions of the game used character classes to allow for varying styles of play. A person attracted to the simplicity of the fighter may not enjoy the resource management aspects of the wizard.

that is funny I found that as players spent more and more time playing they gear themselves toward the level of simplicity they want. In 3.5 I found many wizard players happy to 'down grade' to the warlock, well many fighter players were equaly happy with the 'upgrade' to warblade... infact I saw very few 10th level fighters in my games ever...

[sblock=melee character pre Bo9S]
I have a player who loves theives, and have been playing them sence 1e...in the late 90's he found he more often then not multi classed into eaither wizard or fighter.
This same play around 2003 (right after 3.5 hit I think) found his favorit way to play a rouge was to multi into what he called 'combat class'...he and others around here used this base to build every warrior type you can imagin and every rouge type as well...
Fighter/Rouge/Ranger 2/3/3 then found a prestige class to fit them and there character...why becuse you got skills and fighting power, and hp, and gave up little..

funny how no one every said "gee fighter 8 is just as good, or Ranger 8 is just a good, or ROuge 8 is just as good" and yet the spellcasters could still sing "Anything you can do I can do better...I can do anything better then you"
[/sblock]

The current edition standardizes the style of play. Every style is now the same; however, the effects differ based power. This is how people can feel that every class is the same. They are locked into a specific style of play.

I still see the same styles of play as before I don't know if maybe you and I just have diffrent groups, but fighters are played the way I always wanted to play them, and wizards have only lost there biggest guns...

This is a weakness in the current edition for me and one that has pushed me away from 4e. It is a strength for others.

It is no exsistan to me...

I think the arguments about casters dominating the game are just excuses from people who love the default style of 4e. In fact, those making the arguments were most likely the same players causing such issues in previous editions.

yea, becuse those people that always played wizards are happy with the power cut...oh wait that is a major complaint...

Personally, I think that the love versus hate for 4e is a core style issue. One side wants the game to be open for multiple styles of play, even within the same group, while the other wants a stable play experience that does not vary, even within the group.

I want play style to vary but not the fun...and some things in old edtions where not fun...for most people I know.



I also find it funny I remember people from 1e forward having players say "I am too dumb to be a wizard" now adays you rearly hear that... so was it play stlye diffrence or gamemastery diffrence???

 

[Umbran]

If they're wrong, then the plot resolution is a tragedy. Their views/fears are entirely justified by the way the plot resolves.

They, meaning the protagonists? If so, then yes. If the protagonist is wrong, and fails to learn before it is too late, the result is typically tragedy.

 

[Marius Delphus]

Obsessing with who said a given line is completely beside the point.

I'm not sure this is a tenable position. Surely the writers don't place the movie's message in the mouth of the movie's villain, or of a character who is merely a petulant child at the time the line is delivered. This would cause nearly everyone who sees the movie to miss the message, because it's been said by somebody who, in context, we can't trust.

If they're wrong, then the plot resolution is a tragedy. Their views/fears are entirely justified by the way the plot resolves.

How so? The idea (that if everyone is special, then no one is) is left untested by the end of the movie. The writers appear to want the viewer to understand that being true to who you are is more important than comparing yourself to others. Standard kiddie-fare message: *because* everyone is special, make the most of *your* gifts.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

In a game where the CODzilla barrels through a fight and achieves the same thing all the other melee characters, combined, achieved (and in the case of the druid, takes up nearly as much game time as all the other melee characters, combined), and afterwards heals the other melee characters to boot, IMO the other players could be excused for thinking the CODzilla is a bit of a cheat.

I know games that the DM wont let players play cleric druid wizard sorcerer type until they prove they can 'hold back' enough to let everyone take a turn...

I look at it like superman, he has 300 power, each at rediculace levels of mastery, if he goes all out very little can stop him...BUT he holds bback and doesn't use his speed in the same issue flash does, or his heat vison with blasters, or his award winning investgative journalist skills mixed with super sense when with batman...


edit: An idea from another genre is my character 2 years ago at gen con…

I sat down at a M&M game and the GM asked who new the rules well, me and one of the guys I was with said we did, so he asked if one of us would play the techno character because it was ‘complex’…so I took it.

Now this was a 6 player game that he let 2 others sit in with because they wanted to try the system so 8 players total. I looked at my sheet then asked “Um guys who here thinks these characters are really powerhouses?” and everyone said “um nnot really”…so I proded my 2 friends (so 3 of the 8 of us where from my games) to find out what they had, and then I said tot eh DM “Um…this character is way overboard for this group” but I was assured it was fine…and I had a skill that was needed (It ended up being the computer skill maxed well no one else had above 3 ranks in it)

So I had a power that let me build devices in a round then use it the next, and each time I had X number of points to spend, I had to take one apart to make the next. SO I quickly went though and made some low power toys splitting the points up…then I took a sheet of paper and wrote out a death ray… I folded the paper and gave it to a guy I didn’t know and asked him to hold onto it until the end of the game just incase…

We played the 3 ½ hour game and I was board, I tried not to rearrange my powers every scean to fit what we needed, so others could do things too…finaly when game ended I asked the other player to hand the GM the paper…

He almost had a heart attack… Disintegrate 10 no save… without costing all of my points. I then told him to be more careful, the first encounter I could have used it to end the whole mod…I then told him about the mental link power that let me control mechinces I could give myself that would have ended both rp sceans in like 3 second… he thanked me for not ruining his game and I went away…

But I don’t think he realized how little the fun was for me. The character was so OP that he could solo the game…but I had to sit on my thumbs or ruin 7 other players (one of witch I had to bunk with that night)

 

[TwinBahamut]

Dash isn't "a petulant child", he's the voice of the movie. He's voicing the same thoughts that Bob has hidden, in an attempt to "fit in;" to "be normal." Dash's inability to cope with the mixed message of "do your best" while simultaneously being told, "don't be better than other people, though" is at the heart of the movie. When Syndrome expresses his desire, along with supervillian chortling, to make that bleak situation a reality for everyone, the ridiculousness and untenability of the scenario are highlighted.

At the end of the day, it also doesn't matter which character voiced the thought; the plot itself presents that as the main human drama conflict to be resolved, a bigger conflict in many ways than the more surface conflict with Syndrome and his organization; the real conflict is the ideology represented by Dash (and Bob) vs. that of Syndrome.

At the end, the superheroes are justified; they're allowed to come out of hiding and resume their superheroing duties, because victory over the tyranny of political correctness causing them to hide or not use their powers for fear of being better than the average person is assured.

Obsessing with who said a given line is completely beside the point.

You're wrong. You're just adding stuff into the movie that isn't there, oversimplifying various aspects of the movie, and blatantly forgetting very important parts of the movie.

Alright, here are a few basic facts about the movie.

Dash is just an exaggerated version of the typical boy who hates getting told that he can't do something by his parents. He is basically a bit selfish and very bratty and rebellious. He is certainly immature. He grows a lot by the end of the movie, though, which is indeed the main point.

Bob is an exaggerated version of the typical man going through a mid-life crisis, pining for the adventure and romance of his younger days, letting nostalgia obscure many of the problems. The fact that his wife gets the mistaken impression he is having an affair is perhaps the clearest sign of the fact they are making this parallel...

Syndrome, as he was when he was just Mr. Incredible's fanboy, was just like Dash. He was a bratty, spoiled, and selfish kid. His flaw was that he just didn't grow up. He continued to be bratty and selfish his entire life. This is probably why the people at Pixar gave him the height and appearance of a child when he is grown up.

Syndrome's threat has absolutely nothing to do with making everyone endure some kind of situation of both being "special" and being told to :not be better than other people". I honestly have no idea where you got that from. You seem to be assuming somehow that Syndrome is some kind of parallel for "political correctness" and he stands opposite of the desires that Dash and Bob have early in the movie, but that is completely false. Syndrome is the very incarnation of the desires and ideology that drives Dash to want to be "special" and makes Bob want to relive his youth.

Honestly, I don't think the idea of "political correctness" is even a significant factor in this movie. The Incredibles don't stay under the radar because it is "politically incorrect", they do so because they want to have a normal family. As is shown in the later parts of the film, the Incredibles and the ice-powered guy really don't have any kind of real fear of using their powers when it is necessary to help others. The real event that brought an end to Mr. Incredible's days as a superhero wasn't the lawsuit against him, it was his wedding. The last time he ever wore his mask as Mr. Incredible prior to the main action of the movie was the moment he took it off after putting on his wedding tuxedo. Mr. Incredible didn't just hold his insurance job to keep a low profile, he did so because it was a way of earning a living to support his family. The burdens of married life and raising a family is really what kept him from being a superhero, not anything else.

Anyways, to finally get around to my main point (and I really am no longer addressing Hobo here)... The idea of "specialness" you see in Dash and Syndrome's quotes is basically those two's desires to be, well, worshipped because they perceive themselves as special. I don't think it really even has anything to do with the actual fact of their specialness. The story of The Incredibles is a big metaphor for the trials of a normal family, of any family, not necessarily a family that has a potential olympic athlete for a son. Dash and the young Syndrome are both parallels for the average kid who dreams of being just like some role model and believes that they are uniquely awesome simply because they are uniquely special to their own parents. If you want to get psychoanalytical about it, it could be said that their desire for other people to "recognize their specialness" is nothing more than a foolish desire for everyone to love them unconditionally the same way their parents do. In Syndrome's case, this became such an obsession that he enacted a grand insane scheme to transform himself into the world's only superhero and savior, live as such until he grows old, and then make sure that no one ever becomes as "special" as him ever afterwards.

As one final note, people should keep in mind that Syndrome really is a pathetic little man. For all his desire to be seen as a superhero, he only wants to do so when he has no competition for the limelight and when it is 100% safe for him. If he really wanted, he could have started acting like a hero and used his technology to stop bank robberies at any time.

 

[crazy_monkey1956]

The "anti-political correctness" message is in the movie, though never stated outright.

It is most apparent when Bob and Helen are arguing after Bob comes in late. At one point Bob says, "They keep coming up with new ways to celebrate mediocrity." This is in reference to Dash's 'graduation' ceremony, moving from 4th grade to 5th grade.

As a parent of kids that age, the 'celebration of mediocrity' point is a valid one, in my opinion.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The thing that really hits home with me is that it is almost the story of watchmen... serisely take both storie and put them side by side...

the heros where welocme and part of history
the heroes where outlawed
the heroes went underground...

I mean it is a pizar movie still but with some very adult themes...heck count the deaths in the movie (including the cape gag) and see that this is a very grim and gritty comic book world, not a happy 4 color one...