Tactical detail and complexity, reliance on minis

[Feything]

First, to quote myself from WOTC's official boards:

There is one thing I really dislike about the current edition which I hope will change in 4E.
I'm talking about the, at least in my opinion, slightly too tactically involved combat.
With all the various elements, abilities and options related to combat, such as AoOs, free actions, standard actions, move actions, flanking etc., combat slows to a crawl.
Using counters or minis is more or less a must for most fights, at least if you want the PCs and NPCs/monsters to get a chance to properly use all their combat-related feats and abilities.

In the more complex battles, I've seen a night of roleplaying, storytelling and imagination turn into a tactical boardgame - with immersion pretty much ruined.
I realise that different players want different things from the game, and that the tactical element is the main thing for many. For myself, and pretty much all the people I game with these days it is just another element of the game, and not one that we really want to focus on. Storytelling, roleplaying and immersion are more important to us - with combat ideally playing the role of action sequences (with their prospect of danger) rather than a mini-game in its own right.

So... A major wish for 4E for me (and my gaming group, which says "hi!" by the way) is faster and simpler combat which is easier to play without visual aids like minis or counters.
Trying to simplify combat in our house-rules for the current edition proved to be too much of a challenge. Because so many feats, spells, items and class abilities were tied into the tactical system, a lot would have to be ripped out or changed.

If the default combat-system for 4E is not simpler/faster, or less reliant on visual aids, then I would hope we could at least get a couple of pages with an optional way to do simpler and quicker combat.​

In one of the designer-interview videos from Gencon (don't remember which one at the moment, and couldn't find it now) it is said that in 4E, minis will neither be more or less necessary to play the game than they are currently. It is also hinted that they might be less important than in 3E, but that statement was modified almost straight away.
Another thing which might remedy the situation slightly are the simplified monster-stats.

Personally, as stated above, I've seen sessions devolve into a sort of tactical boardgame during prolonged battles. This bothers me as a DM, and it's something my players have stated they do not like either.

I'd be interested to know how much tactical detail and complexity you prefer in a tabletop RPG, and whether or not there have been any other hints towards a change in how combat will play in 4E?

 

[Drkfathr1]

For me there needs to be a balance between the combats and the storytelling. My players really enjoy the combat, and have loads of fun with the tactical aspect of it.

However, they also need somethign to link all that combat together, and some kind of goal at the end of it all. Hopefully in 4E there will be a little emphasis left on story and roleplaying. It's still too early to tell, but it seems like we're getting alot of: LOTS OF MONSTERS, BIG ENCOUNTERS, TONS OF COMBAT!

That's all well and good, and I know we're just getting tiny snippets so far...but hopefully there will be more to it. Sometimes a session or two of heavy combat makes you feel like you're playing a boardgame.

 

[Counterspin]

There are a lot of systems out there, and they all have different points of interest. I play D&D for the tactical aspect of it. If it became less tactical I'd be less interested.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

^^ Agreed. I love the tactical aspect of D&D combat that was enhanced in 3E, and I'd be sad if they lose that option. What I'd like to see is that they retain it with an easy was to dump it for the folks that don't want to deal with the tactics.

 

[marune]

Feything, maybe it's time to explore others RPGs instead of waiting for 4E ?

Tactical combat is part of what D&D is, like it or not.

The only good thing 4E could do, is make those combat more enjoyable.

 

[F4NBOY]

Feything, maybe it's time to explore others RPGs instead of waiting for 4E ?

Tactical combat is part of what D&D is, like it or not.

The only good thing 4E could do, is make those combat more enjoyable.

And adding to that, the players make the game. The game doesn't make the players.
Even if 4E combat is faster and simpler, tactical players that like combat and so will continue to focus on that.
Get some players that match your playing style.

And Welcome to the Premier D&D Boards of the internet

 

[Teflon Billy]

I can't think they will be cutting back on the necessity of minis.

I mean...they produce minis.

 

[shadow]

I can't think they will be cutting back on the necessity of minis.

I mean...they produce minis.

Yep...if anything 4e will be more reliant on miniatures. WotC still has to make money on their crappy prepainted miniature line.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Yep...if anything 4e will be more reliant on miniatures. WotC still has to make money on their crappy prepainted miniature line.

I actually think they are pretty good. I wanted pre-painted plastic minis for ages.

The randomization is a pain in the ass, but I am pretty happy with the actual quality of them.

I mean, they aren't Reaper good, but they are good enough.

 

[Feything]

Feything, maybe it's time to explore others RPGs instead of waiting for 4E ?

Tactical combat is part of what D&D is, like it or not.

The only good thing 4E could do, is make those combat more enjoyable.

Well, I like D&D. It's almost a fantasy-subgenre in its own right, and it's hard to find other games that does D&D-fantasy quite as well. I realise tactical combat is part of D&D, but in earlier editions it wasn't as complex and involved as to resemble a game all to itself.
I'm not a grognard putting down "new things". In fact, I had a look at C&C for a solution to the "combat problem" with 3E. I found it to be far too "nostalgia-based", and lacked many of those things I found to be improvements in 3E.
I also don't have as much time for RPGs as I did, which means a game that is well supported with published things for me to easily adapt to my campaign or just use is ideal.

I'm not putting down combat, or "killing things and taking their stuff"-play. I'm just finding that the combat system in 3E is too involved for me and my players. Enough so to break immersion and get in the way of our fun. Especially when during a long battle people would start calling out the game-mechanics of what they're doing (which ability or feat they use) and pushing the counters around on the battlemat rather than describing their actions.
I'd like to see a simpler and faster system either as default or as a well defined option in the core books. Combat in D&D, in my opinion, should be action-sequences, not mini-games (in both senses of the word).