Take the Narrative Wounding Challenge.

[Hussar]

In Mercurious' thread http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/312254-i-dont-get-dislike-healing-surges.html , there is a fair bit of discussion about how the narrative space for describing wounds is smaller in 4e than in earlier editions, mostly because of the Healing Surge mechanic and additionally, the extended rest mechanic.

Now, I disagree. I don't think the narrative space has changed much at all between 3e and 4e. I can't speak to earlier editions, mostly because my memory of the mechanics is way too fuzzy. I honestly don't know. So, this challenge is set in the 3e/Pathfinder ruleset.

Setup: A PC is attacked by an unarmed troll and hit. The PC is dropped to negative 5 hp by the attack.

Challenge: Describe that hit.

Rules:

• Your description must be potentially lethal.
• Your description cannot be immediately fatal since the PC could make his stabilization check.
• The wound must be fully recoverable within 2 weeks of rest without any magical intervention.

For bonus points, explain how this wound could be narrated in 4e. Not necessary though. I'm more just curious as to how the actual narrative space has been reduced.

 

[Pentius]

Do I need to describe all ways it could be narrated or just the one I'd probably use?

I'd probably use something along the lines of, "The troll's twisted fist strikes you in the side of the head, knocking you to the ground. As your ears ring, your vision starts to fade to black. You fall unconscious(you are at -5, Dave)."


This would be a concussion. It is also what I would do in 4e.

Disclaimer: Not having spent much time in high school football, I know little about concussions. But they pass my fairly loose realism litmus test.

Also, it was Mercurious's thread, not Mallus's, for the nitpick.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Also, it was Mercurious's thread, not Mallus's, for the nitpick.

Oops. Fixed.

Naw, doesn't need to be all ways, just ones that fit the criteria.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think this sets up the other side of that debate as something of a straw man. People weren't looking for a physics engine. Few of us wanted 100% realistic healing where you have to worry about infection and internal bleeding. We just wanted something more plausible than healing surges offered. I think most of us are fine with heroes healing somewhat quickly. What we dont want is for the deep wound to dissapear in the next shot. We want narrative consistency and believability...that doesn't mean we feel D&D should simulate every grain of reality.

 

[jonesy]

If the wound was a nasty deep cut into a non-vital area, it would be an infection risk, and potentially lethal, but also recoverable.

A healing surge could then be someone simply cauterizing it.

 

[steeldragons]

Cool thread idea, Hussar!

I know it's not strictly what you asked for, but for a look at what 1e and 2e for the most part, also...I present the following. It should be noted that your "no magical haling rule" really doesn't/can't apply in those editions...but I'll supply an "alternate" ending that doesn't use magic.

Tom Thief is trying to Hide in Shadows to get a Backstab attack on the troll.
<DM rolls for Hide in Shadows. Fail.>
DM: "The troll lifts its head and sniffs the air. It's hollow black eyes turn to look directly at Tom."

Tom: "Aw crap."

DM: <roll attack. wince. roll damage. wince.> "The troll makes a huge sweep with its gnarled hand. Stone-hard black claws tear effortlessly through the side of your leather armor...digging into your flesh, raking through muscle and bone...The blow lifts you, effortlessly, from the ground and tosses you...15 feet away."
<turning to the rest of the players who all have pained looks on their faces> "You see the blow and Tom goes flying through the cavern to land in heavy thud and roll away from the immediate melee."
<turning back to Tom.> "Sorry. You take X damage. Which brings you tooooo..."

Tom: "Yeeeah, I'm at -5."

Rest of the party: Mike Mage, Cathy Cleric and Fiona Fighter carry on for the round. Blows are exchanged. New initiative. More blows exchanged.

Mike Mage: (to Tom) You're up. What're you doing?

Now, there are 3...options...or levels of player in this kind of scenario. And one is not really any "better" per se than the others, though I certainly have my preference.

Tom 1: says nothing. He's unconscious and bleeding on the floor, after all. Just looks over at the DM to answer the question.
Tom 2: says something non-committal or perhaps humorous. "Just laying here...ya know, bleedin'."
Tom 3: "I'M AT FRIGGIN' NEG 5 HIT POINTS! BANDAGE ME! HEAL ME! QUICK QUICK!"

We don't particularly like playing with Tom 3. But moving on...let's assume Tom 1.

Tom does not answer Mike Mage. Both look to DM for explanation.
DM: "You can plainly see that Tom Thief has not moved at all from where he landed. You notice blood pooling beneath him."

Mike Mage: "I go over and see if he's dead. I'll start bandaging if he's not."

DM: "You turn him over and see the massive tear in his side, bleeding freely, an exposed rib or two. He is already very very pale from the blood loss. You begin, frantically trying to staunch the bleeding and bind the wound, but it is very bad. Tom, you're at -6."

Now, according to 1e rules, "any assistance [generally explained/hand-waved as "bandaging them up"] from a friendly person
will stop someone sinking in negatives. So, technically, at this point, with Mike's assistance, Tom should be "stabilized" at -6 HP.

2e Non-weapon proficiencies have a Healing NWP, which somewhat stupidly if you ask me, if only available to Priests anyway! [our games, we usually allowed it for anyone, a "field medic/first aid" kinda NWP that anyone could use.] But I suppose it was a way to take some pressure off the clerics' spell use and allow for some minor healing without using magic.

S'anywho...
Mike Mage is frantically bandaging Tom Thief.

Mike: "Cathy we need you over here, this isn't good."

Cathy Cleric: "But it's almost dead!"

Tom: "So am I!"

DM: "You're unconscious."

Cathy: *huff* "Fine. I go over to where Mike and Tom are and cast Cure Light."<rolls>"Ugh. Well, you get 4 back."

DM: "Cathy invokes her nature goddess and her hands begin pulsing with a a golden light. The distinct scent of pine trees and summer rain waft over and around the thief's body. The bleeding subsides a bit and coagulates. Portions of the torn skin seal up over reknitting muscles. Some color returns to his face, though it is still a deathly pallor. He does not awaken but seems to be lulled into a comfortable rest.<to Tom> There will definitely be scarring, but thanks to Cathy, you are currently stable at -2. Still unconscious. Sorry."

Fiona Fighter: "YES! Natural 20! I'm takin' this thing's head off!"

DM: <caught somewhat offguard> "We'll see. Roll damage Fiona."
..................................................

At -2, without more magical assistance, Tom Thief will be unconscious for another 3 days...before achieving a positive 1 hit point and thus regaining consciousness. That is, of course, assuming his band survives the encounter with the troll, builds some kind of sled or gurney to get Tom someplace relatively secure and safe and he is tended for those 3 days.

This obviously, can be sped up with potions, further spells, some Healing NWP (I might allow someone with Herbalism to assist also).

But for the purposes of your "challenge", if the initial Cure Lights had not been administered, and Tom had just been "stabilized" at -6. Then you're talking 7 days of unconsciousness ("coma") before being able to get back on his roguish feet. Not very much fun for the player if the other PCs insist on continuing on their way.

As always, have fun and happy gaming.
--SD

 

[Hussar]

I think this sets up the other side of that debate as something of a straw man. People weren't looking for a physics engine. Few of us wanted 100% realistic healing where you have to worry about infection and internal bleeding. We just wanted something more plausible than healing surges offered. I think most of us are fine with heroes healing somewhat quickly. What we dont want is for the deep wound to dissapear in the next shot. We want narrative consistency and believability...that doesn't mean we feel D&D should simulate every grain of reality.

Ok. Nothing in the OP counters that.

You say you want believability. You also claim that 4e strips that away.

So, put your money where your mouth is. I'm not a doctor. I have no real idea how long stuff takes to heal, other than a pretty good idea that anything like this:

"The troll makes a huge sweep with its gnarled hand. Stone-hard black claws tear effortlessly through the side of your leather armor...digging into your flesh, raking through muscle and bone...The blow lifts you, effortlessly, from the ground and tosses you...15 feet away."

takes a HELL of a lot longer than days to heal. We're talking months, if not never for that wound to be recovered. So, by the criteria in the OP, this one's a bust. There's just no way anyone's going to buy that an attack that rips through BONE is, in any way, recoverable in days.

So, Bedrockgames, let's see if you're up to the challenge. The claim is on the table that the narrative space used to be much broader and that 4e has made it impossible to narrate the way people want to.

My point is, people's idea of "narration" was pretty much completely divorced from the mechanics anyway, so, how is this much different in 4e?

 

[JamesonCourage]

We've once again reached a place where it's okay to use a healing surge as a heroic way to ignore wounds you've taken, but you're not able to be heroic enough to heal for a few days and be mobile before most other people are able to.

It's beginning to feel repetitive and like something that isn't going to be grasped at best, and purposefully disingenuous and misleading at worst. It's not about complete realism. It's about having the mechanic leave the narrative opportunity for long term or short term wounds. I don't care if a PC gets knocked out for a few days before he heroically gets up and moves around without penalty. This is similar to using a healing surge to heroically ignore wounds.

But honestly, you can do a lot with blood loss and an infection. Blood loss for unconsciousness (and potentially bleeding out), and an infection that keeps you down for a few days (unconscious, or conscious but delirious). The infection eases, you get up, still injured but heroically pressing through it. You'll go down in one hit, because you can't take much punishment, but as a hero, you're ignoring most of the injuries (like a healing surge lets you).

This is why I say it's one-sided treatment. Healing surges are potentially heroically brushing aside the pain and wound, but getting up after days is too far (for some reason I can't understand). It's perfectly believable for healing surges to work, but not for healing naturally and being injured but ignoring penalties.

This call for complete realism being applied to one side, and the other side is getting the pass because it's "heroic". Let's apply both evenly, please. If you want heroism in your 4e, allow it to work in pre-4e wound healing. As always, play what you like

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I'll bite. Since I'm currently running a Basic game, (there's no negative hp in Basic) it will unfold something like this:

"Tom, the troll rips your head off, swallows it whole, and flings your lifeless body at Mike, the mage."

 

[gamerprinter]

Here's an example of stepping beyond just the narrative.

The kappa, turtle shelled water imp of the Kaidan setting get's a special combat maneuver called bone-breaking - as one of your attacks during a combat round, a kappa can apply his bone-breaking maneuver. If he succeeds on a hit and does at least 1/4 the amount of damage that the opponent has left in his HP total - the opponents 'bones' are broken and take an amount of Dexterity Damage based on a kappa's strength bonus + 1/5 the kappa bone-breaker's levels. For each successful bone-breaking attempt, your opponent loses 5 feet of movement (until Dex damage heals).

The kappa swings his club hard and fast, striking the opponent with a notable 'cracking' sound. His leg is broken. Even if he manages to stay on his feet, the player has to limp with movement loss...

Until the opponent fully heals his Dexterity loss, for all intents and purposes, his leg is broken. So not only is it narrative, but in Kaidan at least, this kind of damage is reflected in the mechanics.