Take the Narrative Wounding Challenge.

[Hussar]

I think the heart of the problem is that people insist that healing surges=healing.

They don't. Not really. All they do is recharge your current pool of HP. You have your HP pool, and when that runs out, you might die. To recharge your HP pool, you can funnel in HP from surges.

But, effectively, you simply have a very large HP base to work from. A 40 HP character with 10 surges (these are rough numbers) has, essentially, 140 hp, but can only access 40 HP at a time and there is a certain rate with which that available pool can be recharged.

But, if a 140 HP character takes 10 damage, is that a serious wound? Would you narrate it as such? Most people wouldn't, I would think. Now, anything that takes you to 0 HP, while you still have surges left, is potentially lethal, or it's a minor wound, and really, nothing in between. I'll agree with that.

But, you don't actually heal anything until 24 hours later. Same as 3e really. A one day healing rate has been called acceptable, and that is precisely what 4e has.

Surges add a tactical element to the game that HP don't, because, unlike previous editions, you don't have all your HP available to you all the time. But, as far as time passing to allow for wounds, well, it does take a day to heal.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I think the heart of the problem is that people insist that healing surges=healing.

Maybe for some but I agree there is no easy way of equating these two things (as has been difficult I think in all version of Dungeons and Dragons because of dumping the physical and non-physical aspects of hit points in together). I think the best word I can think of to describe a healing surge is recovery. I don't really find the term healing surge that good - although the surge part hits the money.

But, effectively, you simply have a very large HP base to work from. A 40 HP character with 10 surges (these are rough numbers) has, essentially, 140 hp, but can only access 40 HP at a time and there is a certain rate with which that available pool can be recharged.

Yes.

But, if a 140 HP character takes 10 damage, is that a serious wound? Would you narrate it as such? Most people wouldn't, I would think. Now, anything that takes you to 0 HP, while you still have surges left, is potentially lethal, or it's a minor wound, and really, nothing in between. I'll agree with that.

But, you don't actually heal anything until 24 hours later.

The minimum time is 6 hours with an immediate extended rest. This can be hampered by requiring 12 hours between the end of the previous extended rest and the start of the current extended rest. Or as D'karr suggested upthread, you can force the party to survive by denying ready access to an extended rest. This is certainly a fun/challenging situation in particular circumstances.

Same as 3e really.

For a high level anemic wizard I agree (3.x healing certainly has it's own issues). Otherwise, healing unaided in the negatives is far more perilous, and complete recovery can be many days away if no magic is involved. It is not perfect, it varies between different PCs in unnatural ways but it does take longer. As shown throughout the thread, it is highly adaptable and flexible to encompass a variety of circumstances in a somewhat reasonable way.

A one day healing rate has been called acceptable

Not really no. In fact I think this is the biggest issue in that many people feel that a one day mundane recovery is unreasonable. The thing is we want automatic recovery and thus why we have healing sticks and magic in 3e and and magic and overly alacritous "recovery" times in 4e (the latter being the primary issue for some).

Surges add a tactical element to the game that HP don't, because, unlike previous editions, you don't have all your HP available to you all the time.

I actually agree with this that surges add a good tactical dimension to the game. I think Herschel made an excellent post over on the other thread on this (in fact I might have to pop over there to add some XP to his account).

I also feel that a wound/vitality system adds an excellent tactical and narrative dimension to the game but that is more in tune with my own preference for deadlier combat (if you point a crossbow at a PC, I want them to feel like they are in danger unlike current versions of D&D and to be honest, this style is really not D&D but heh...

But, as far as time passing to allow for wounds, well, it does take a day to heal.

And this in a nutshell is the sticking point.

Good post!

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Hussar]

It's nice when we agree. Although I would point out that, "(if you point a crossbow at a PC, I want them to feel like they are in danger unlike current versions of D&D" has never really been true except for Basic/Expert D&D at 1st level. Heck, a crossbow in AD&D only does a d4+1 points of damage - that won't even likely KO the anemic wizard, never mind the fighter.

Reminds me of an old Dragon comic where they have this barbarian tied to a tree and he's filled full of arrows. They're trying to execute him by firing squad. The scribe off to the side is tallying up the HP damage and telling them to keep firing.