Taking 10 or 20 on checks

[Oryan77]

I'm not a stickler for rules but I do like to make things run smoothly. I'm wondering what the proper way to handle something like this would be:

The PC's need to either clear their mind & not think about a particular god in order to gain access to an area, or they need to praise a particular god in order to gain access to an area. If they fail, they can't enter the area. I ruled it as a Will save with a DC of 20. I thought about making it a concentration check instead, but the Will save seemed more fair for each PC.

One player asked about taking 20 on this check. This seems like an action that could be tried over & over until you can successfuly clear your mind, so I allowed everyone to take 20 and they eventually gained access into the area. It made the scenario seem weak & less exciting by taking 20, but it wasn't that big of a deal.

The important thing wasn't being denied access to the area, the important thing was figuring out how to gain access. This was just flavor for the scenario, so if they figured out how to enter, I didn't want to keep them from never entering the area from failed checks.

Just in case I do similiar things like this again, I'd like to be assured that I'm doing it the best way I can. How would you have handled this? Does it even make sense taking 10 or 20 on saving throw checks?

 

[Henry]

I wouldn't allow taking 10 or 20, because then you might have players trying to convince you to let them take them in combat.

If failure has no consequence (in other words, if NOTHING bad happens from failure, and they can try again until they get it right), then it's allowable, by the spirit of the rules. But I would just let it be a roleplaying test, and I might make deeply religious characters (clerics, some paladins, and PCs self-described as religious) make a saving throw for it, but failure is still failure.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

If you want it to be a more mental test, you could make it a Concentration check modified by Wisdom, rather than Constitution. Then, the normal rules on Taking 10 and Taking 20 would apply.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I like Patryn's solution. And, whether it makes the scenario weak or not is open to interpretation. If it's meant entirely for flavor, and the PC's figured it out, then you've accomplished your objective regardless of how you ruled the check. So, I don't agree it's weak. If you wanted it to be significantly more difficult, however, you could use the Concentration check with Wisdom, but upon failure inflict 1 point of wisdom damage. Thus, no taking 20. This really screws the non-casters, though, who will (almost) never get ranks in Concentration.

 

[shilsen]

Does it even make sense taking 10 or 20 on saving throw checks?

No. You cannot take 10 or 20 on saves. You can only do so on skill checks and ability checks, and that too, only under certain conditions.

 

[LordBOB]

if your players dont care about roleplaying than just let them take 10 or 20. Personality i would of liked to try and pass the test on my own to enter the area.

It all depends on how your players like to play. If they hack-n-slash than dont bother them with trying to figure out how to clear their mind. Just let them take 10 or 20 and be done with it.

If they are more into roleplaying than let them figure it out the hard way. It could make for some interesting playing.

 

[Tatsukun]

No. You cannot take 10 or 20 on saves. You can only do so on skill checks and ability checks, and that too, only under certain conditions.

Normally right, but in this case the PC can just walk through the door. If he fails the check, and can't get in, he just walks in again. The group can play out every PC rolling until they pass, or you can just handwave them into the room (which for skills is called 'take 20').

I would let it happen.

-Tatsu

 

[FireLance]

No. You cannot take 10 or 20 on saves. You can only do so on skill checks and ability checks, and that too, only under certain conditions.

I would say that there is nothing to prevent you from taking 10 or 20 on saves, if the circumstances are right.

If you are not under stress, you can take 10. Unfortunately, most saves will occur during times of stress - a combat is going on, a trap is sprung, or there is some other hazard present.

If there is no consequence for failure, you can take 20. Unfortunately, there usually is a consequence for failing a saving throw - the spell affects you, or affects you to a greater degree than if you had passed the saving throw.

In the set-up mentioned, I probably would have allowed the PCs to take 10 or take 20. In effect, it would be no different from needing to find a secret door with a DC 20 Search check in order to go in. However, I would probably have used Concentration, or a simple DC 10 Wisdom check, instead of the saving throw mechanic.

 

[Stalker0]

The point of saves is to avoid bad things happening. Failing saves should always have bad consequences, that's why you make saves.

So...next time make the will save an conc check, and they can take 20. As you said, figuring out the way in was the trick not actually doing it...so nothing wrong with hurrying the players through that part.

 

[Li Shenron]

The point of saves is to avoid bad things happening. Failing saves should always have bad consequences, that's why you make saves.

I quite agree. I would have rather called for a simple Wisdom check.

In any case, the situation feels kind of moot, Oryan77... you wanted them to enter the area or not? Unless there was a reason to do so quickly, allowing to take 20 on the check (or retry until they succeed) is a bit the same as saying "only those with Wis at least +XX (or Will at least +YY) can enter".