Taking 20, Take 10

[Water Bob]

How often do you guys use the Take 20 and Take 10 rules in your game?

I haven't quite gotten comfortable with those two rules yet. I like them. They make sense. On the one hand, they're time savers that keep the game moving and block many non-important dice throws. On the other hand, they seem to be automatic success machines in many situations, and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that (I mean, why have a check at all if the Take 20 rule will make it an auto success?).

A good example is Spot. Take 10 is a great way, I think, to consider a player who says his character going to keep his eye out for anything unusual. All the GM needs to do is roll Hide checks against a DC equal to the PC's Take 10 total.

Then again, this makes the character automatically see quite a bit of stuff.

And...there's always that question: If a character can Take 10, then why isn't he Taking 20?

So, how do you guys use these rules in your game, for what purposes, generally, and how often?

 

[HoboGod]

I try to take 10 as much as possible, the problem is that I'm the only DM that realistically approaches skill checks, so an 18 doesn't earn me much. I'm more likely to get a positive outcome by rolling a dice just because the DM gives more "pity" circumstantial bonuses that way. Pity bonuses piss me off, it implies that anything that isn't a high roll is unsatisfactory.

As for taking 20, I do so for things like gather information, but not much else. Quite honestly, if you take 20 on a spot check, by the time you notice what you're trying to spot, it's too late to do anything about it. If it takes a full-round to perform a check, it takes two minutes to take 20.

DM: "Roll a spot check."
Player: "I'll take 20 on that spot check."
DM: *Face palm* "Two minutes pass and you watch the single goblin waiting in the bushes call for reinforcements, the reinforcements come, and you watch as they all drink potions of bear's endurance and bull's strength. But on the bright side, you noticed all of them have really cool tattoos of a legendary cobra constricting a dragon."

 

[radmod]

How often do you guys use the Take 20 and Take 10 rules in your game?

And...there's always that question: If a character can Take 10, then why isn't he Taking 20?

So, how do you guys use these rules in your game, for what purposes, generally, and how often?

Quite often. What you have to remember is that the Take's take time.
The requirement for Take 10 is that you can't be threatened or distracted.
The requirement for Take 20 is that you have plenty of time (20 rounds).
Take 10 simply means that you have time to be more careful about what you are doing. Some DMs require a full minute of time to take 10 though that's not RAW.
Take 20 is effectively taking 20 rounds to do something. In 20 rounds, the 'average' is that you will roll a 20.

So if you know no-one's going to bother you for a while then you take 20 to find that secret door. If you have some time, for example at least a minute, you might take 10 on a Spot before prepping for combat. Also certain classes/feats/races allow you to take 10 in special circumstances even if threatened/rushed.
Also, depending on the DM, the two are not necessarily complimentary. In the PH, they give an example of Tordek climbing and taking 10. That's fine to me, he's not threatened or rushed. If you want to take 20, I'm not sure I'd allow it because it's not the same thing as taking 10 and in 20 rounds you're probably likely to fail several times (and live/die by the results).

So, yes, if time really isn't a factor then Take all you want!

 

[radmod]

As for taking 20, I do so for things like gather information, but not much else.

Um, I hate to be nitpicky but wouldn't that literally require days? Yes, I know, technically you don't increase the time by a factor of 20 but it's implied, so
20 d4 + 20 hours.

BTW, love your *face palm* quote. I've done exactly that, though I wimped out after 10 rounds, not 20.

 

[Water Bob]

DM: "Roll a spot check."
Player: "I'll take 20 on that spot check."
DM: *Face palm* "Two minutes pass and you watch the single goblin waiting in the bushes call for reinforcements, the reinforcements come, and you watch as they all drink potions of bear's endurance and bull's strength. But on the bright side, you noticed all of them have really cool tattoos of a legendary cobra constricting a dragon."

I know you meant this in semi-jest, but it brings up two procedural issues with the game that I've got to get a handle upon.

First, your line, "Roll a spot check."

I don't really want my players rolling spot checks. Why? It alerts them that something is there or might be there. If they fail the check, they're wondering why I had them roll a spot check. So, they're pulling weapons and looking around and being more careful than they should be because they didn't notice anything with the failure.

So...I want to figure a way around that. I thought maybe Taking 10 would do the trick. But, maybe I need to have them roll spot checks for no reason, just to keep them on their toes and not know when the check is "for real". Or, maybe I need to have them all roll spot checks--about twenty times--to be recorded and used at a later date. Then again, maybe I should just roll them behind the screen.

How do you guys handle these types of checks without tipping off the players when they shouldn't be tipped off?

For example, if you've got that goblin ambush set up, and none of the PCs make their Spot check roll, you want to surprise them with the ambush, right? Not tip them off to it, right?

How do you prevent tipping them off?






Second, your Taking 20 example brings up another issue that can be hard to handle. The Taking 20 result occurs after two minutes, and it is successful. But, the gobbies, seeing the human stair their way, decide to launch the attack after the human has stared their way for only 30 seconds.

So, really, played correctly, you've got to interrupt the player's turn. You can't complete it and tell him what he's seen--because the gobbies are going to launch the attack when they see one of their quarry get suspicious and look their way.

But, it's counter intuitive to not give the player a result when he says, "I'm going to Take 20 on this task. What do I see with my 32 spot check?"

Technically, you need to say, "You stare off to the south, searching the road and the bush, not seeing anything, when an arrow zooms past your head!" Then, play out the surprise round.

What you want to do, though, is complete the player's action and give him an answer, "You see the goblins hiding out in the bush, staring back at you, drinking their potions..."

I guess this is more of a DM discipline, but how do you guys tend to handle this sort of thing?

 

[HoboGod]

Um, I hate to be nitpicky but wouldn't that literally require days?

Yeah, but I usually like to play the methodical type that peruses information like an alchemist to the philosopher's stone.

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As for not tipping off your players, if they fail their spot checks and start drawing their weapons for no good reason, I start beating them with the closest book I have. If they fail their spot and listen checks, they can take no actions but watch idly as I puppet their PCs into my devious traps and ambushes. A metagamer gets no leeway, no inch in my games.

Sometimes if it REALLY ruins a surprise, I often have multiple things they can notice in a spot or listen check. DC 8? A half-eaten dead ogre! DC 14? A black onyx gem worth 300 gp in the clutches of it's hands! DC 22? The dead ogre's decayed, lifeless eyes just looked at you.

 

[Vegepygmy]

How often do you guys use the Take 20 and Take 10 rules in your game?

A lot. I love the take 10/20 rules.

On the other hand, they seem to be automatic success machines in many situations, and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that (I mean, why have a check at all if the Take 20 rule will make it an auto success?).

Because the character may not have time to take 20. And how do you know when you set the DC if there will be a character who can beat it by taking 20 anyway? I mean, when I prepare an adventure/encounter/whatever, and I decide there's going to be a locked door that requires a DC 30 Open Lock check to open, I have no idea if there's going to be a PC with Open Lock +10 or not. Even if I have a player whose character has Open Lock +10, he may be dead/unconscious/missing at that point in the game, or he may be Dex-damaged and no longer able to make the check. Who knows?

And...there's always that question: If a character can Take 10, then why isn't he Taking 20?

Because there's a consequence for failure? There are many situations where you can take 10, but not 20.

How do you guys handle these types of checks without tipping off the players when they shouldn't be tipped off?

That's a good question. In the case of a Spot check, the character can't take 20 unless he's actively spotting, which only happens when the player declares it is happening. So the only question is, for the single passive Spot check he's entitled to make, does he take 10 or roll for it? I let my players know that unless they've told me in advance they are taking 10 on Listen and Spot checks, I'm going to secretly roll.

Technically, you need to say, "You stare off to the south, searching the road and the bush, not seeing anything, when an arrow zooms past your head!" Then, play out the surprise round.

Correct.

What you want to do, though, is complete the player's action and give him an answer, "You see the goblins hiding out in the bush, staring back at you, drinking their potions..."

Why do I want to do that?

 

[Water Bob]

I often have multiple things they can notice in a spot or listen check. DC 8? A half-eaten dead ogre! DC 14? A black onyx gem worth 300 gp in the clutches of it's hands! DC 22? The dead ogre's decayed, lifeless eyes just looked at you.

I really, REALLY like that idea. Thanks!

Because there's a consequence for failure? There are many situations where you can take 10, but not 20.

After reading the Take 10/Take 20 rules closer, I have a better feel for them.

I especially like Take 10. I see myself using that a lot in games.

So the only question is, for the single passive Spot check he's entitled to make, does he take 10 or roll for it? I let my players know that unless they've told me in advance they are taking 10 on Listen and Spot checks, I'm going to secretly roll.

I think, in my game, I'm going to default to Take 10 of passive Spot and Listen checks. It makes it easy. I can throw the Hide or Move Silent vs. a DC equal to the PC's Take 10 total. I sometimes roll the dice behind the screen anyway--just for nothing, to keep players guessing, so I can easily "hide" this roll and keep the players guessing.

Why do I want to do that?

Well...ah, never mind.

 

[Water Bob]

Can you Take 10 on a Saving Throw? Or, is the rule reserved for skill and ability checks only?

 

[HoboGod]

Generally you don't make saving throws when you're not threatened.

However, no, I've never heard of rules for taking 10 on a saving throw.